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Secession and the Constitution

Submitted by Simon on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 10:06am

I posted this as a comment in this CF thread, but since I invested some research time in it, I may as well repost it here with a headnote. Commenter Justin suggests that while "[t]he Constitution does not give explicit rights to secede[,] ... the history of the signing does give implicit permission. Two of the colonies, New York and some other, refused to ratify the Constitution if it disallowed secession." (Not in fact true, see Amar, America's Constitution: a Biography 37-38 (2005).) He cites this piece by David Alan Black in support of the theory. I'm unpersuaded, not least because the Black piece contains some history that is dubious, some that is outright wrong, and some which smells of red herring.

I.

First, Black argues that "The point was raised in the convention: Should there be a 'perpetual union' clause in the Constitution? The delegates voted it down, and the states were left free to secede under the Constitution, which remains the U. S. government charter today."

I have searched Madison's notes of the convention, and find no such motion or debate about a "perpetual union." Indeed, I find only nine mentions of the term "perpetual," and they are in the following contexts. On June 26th, James Madison suggested that the "long term allowed to the 2d. branch should not commence till such a period of life, as would render a perpetual disqualification to be re-elected little inconvenient either in a public or private view." On July 21, he warned that the choice of judicial selection mechanism risked "throw[ing] the appointments entirely into the hands of ye. Northern States, a perpetual ground of jealousy & discontent would be furnished to the Southern States." On July 11, Madison said that "[h]e could not agree that any substantial objection lay [against] fixing numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation," and on August 8th, he objected to fixing "1 for every 40,000, inhabitants as a perpetual rule."

On June 21st, James Wilson worried that "in spite of every precaution the general Govt. would be in perpetual danger of encroachments from the State Govts." On July 14, Wilson averred that "perfection was unattainable in any plan; but being a fundamental and a perpetual error, it ought by all means to be avoided." And on August 13th, Wilson suggested that "an insuperable objection [against] the proposed restriction of money bills to the [House of Representatives] that it would be a source of perpetual contentions where there was no mediator to decide them." On August 18th, several members of the convention discussed "perpetual revenue," and on June 11, "Mr. READ disliked the idea of guarantying territory. It abetted the idea of distinct States [which] would be a perpetual source of discord."

Moreover, while I'm willing to look at Madison's notes as general background, to rest excessive authority on them seems as mistaken to me as is reliance on legislative history in statutory matters (albeit to a lesser extent). Even assuming the unvarnished accuracy of Madison's notes, the public that ratified the Constitution were not privy to those notes, or to the debates. Thus, even if Black could support his assertion, it would not convince me. It is the original meaning of the Constitution that controls, not any particular intent on the part of individual speakers at the convention: the question is "what would this document have been understood to mean by the society that ratified it?" It is well-established that when construing a statute, that "our starting point must be the language employed by Congress, and we assume that the legislative purpose is expressed by the ordinary meaning of the words used. Thus[,] absent a clearly expressed legislative intention to the contrary, that language must ordinarily be regarded as conclusive." American Tobacco Co. v. Patterson, 456 U.S. 63, 68 (1982) (internal citations and quotation marks omitted); accord Smith v. United States, 508 U.S. 223, 228 ("[w]hen a word is not defined by statute, we normally construe it in accord with its ordinary or natural meaning"); id. at 242 (Scalia, dissenting) ("[i]n the search for statutory meaning, we give nontechnical words and phrases their ordinary meaning"); Neder v. United States, 527 U.S. 1 (1999) ("where Congress uses terms that have accumulated settled meaning under ... the common law, a court must infer, unless the statute otherwise dictates, that Congress means to incorporate the established meaning of these terms"). So for statutory interpretation, so for Constitutional interpretation, excepting that the Constitution nowhere defines its terms, and therefore, when construing the Constitution, we seek the plain meaning of its words in 1788, informed by its structure, by the common law, and by the discernible background assumptions of the society that ratified it. See generally R. Bork, The Tempting of America (1990), 144 ("Law is a public act. Secret reservations or intentions count for nothing. All that counts is how the words used in the Constitution would have been understood at the time"); A. Scalia, A Matter of Interpretation (1998), 38 ("it is curious that most of those who insist that the drafter's intent gives meaning to a statute reject the drafter's intent as a criterion for interpretation of the Constitution. I reject it for both ... What I look for in the Constitution is precisely what I look for in a statute: the original meaning of the text, not what the original draftsmen intended") (emphasis added); F. Easterbrook, Text, History and Structure in Statutory Interpretation, 17 Harv. J. L. & Pub. Pol. 61, 68 (1994) (“[i]ntent is elusive for a natural person, fictive for a collective body”); M. Rappaport, The Original Meaning of the Recess Appointments Clause, 52 UCLA L. Rev. 1487 (2005).

II.

Black attributes to Alexander Hamilton the quote that "[t]o coerce the states is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised," but cites no primary source and provides no context. A google search for the phrase returns but a handful of pro-secession websites, mostly repeating without citation.

The quote is authentic, but was not uttered for the purpose that the secessionist apologists would use it. It comes from the New York ratifying convention, see II Elliot's Debates 232. The entire passage is too lengthy to quote, and should be read in full, but here, at least, is the remark set back into the paragraph from which it has been teased:

From the delinquency of those states which have suffered little by the war, we naturally conclude, that they have made no efforts; and a knowledge of human nature will teach us that their ease and security have been a principal cause of their want of exertion. While danger is distant its impression is weak; and while it affects only our neighbors, we have few motives to provide against it. Sir, if we have national objects to pursue, we must have national revenues. If you make requisitions, and they are not complied with, what is to be done? It has been observed, to coerce the States is one of the maddest projects that was ever devised. A failure of compliance will never be confined to a single state; This being the case, can we suppose it wise to hazard a civil war? Suppose Massachusetts, or any large state, should refuse, and Congress should attempt to compel them, would they not have influence to procure assistance, especially from those states which are in the same situation as themselves? What picture does this idea present to our view? A complying state at war with a non-complying state; Congress marching the troops of one state into the bosom of another; this state collecting auxiliaries, and forming, perhaps, a majority against its federal head. Here is a nation at war with itself. Can any reasonable man be well disposed towards a government which makes war and carnage the only means of supporting itself--a government that can exist only by the sword? Every such war must involve the innocent with the guilty. This single consideration should be sufficient to dispose every peaceable citizen against such a government.

Hamilton was speaking of the deficiency of the Articles of Confederation, which failed to provide means for the central government to "coerce" the States to comply with the requisitions for revenue. To say the least, putting the quote back into context undercuts the support it offer's Black's thesis.

III.

Black's history descends from dubious to outright farcical when he asserts -- without any citation or support -- that:

After the [civil] war, Jefferson Davis ... was arrested and placed in prison prior to a trial. The trial was never held, because [Chief Justice Chase] ... informed President Andrew Johnson that if Davis were placed on trial for treason the United States would lose the case because nothing in the Constitution forbids secession. That is why no trial of Jefferson Davis was held, despite the fact that he wanted one.

In the first instance, the Federal Courts do not issue advisory opinions, a practise that was established in the earliest days of the Republic when Chief Justice Jay refused to answer certain questions the administration desired the Supreme Court's opinion on. See Muskrat v. United States, 219 U.S. 346 (1911). If Chase did so tell Johnson, it would have amounted to his personal opinion, without legal force, and in any event, Black cites no source in support of this contention. More reliable accounts of the history - i.e. those not trying to prove a point - record that Chase, sitting as Circuit Judge, "made known" in November 1868 his view that §3 of the 14th Amendment "nullified" the indictment against Davis: "[i]f this prohibition was found by the court to be a penalty, it would bar further prosecution on the basis of double jeopardy. At the start of the trial the motion was made and argued by counsel." And in any event, the case was rendered moot within a month when, "[i]n December[,] [President] Johnson issued a general amnesty."

* * *

In the absence of any textual provision supporting secession, Justin must turn to one of two sources: he must either go around the Constitution altogether, and identify some fuzzy natural law right to secede (Josef Stalin's 1913 thesis Marxism and the National Question suggests that "A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture ... [and] [a] nation has the right to arrange its life on autonomous lines. It even has the right to secede" - but I wouldn't think that Marxist theory filtered through Josef Stalin would hold much appeal to an American southern secessionist), which doesn't establish a Constitutional right to secede but rather declares the Constitution irrelevant to the question, or to go through the Constitution, you'd have to identify atextual sources that clearly establish that the original understanding in 1788 of the Constitution clearly denied that it was a union in perpetuo. If that is the challenge Justin wishes to take up, I submit that he needa more than Black's transparently flawed and misleading history to support it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but not to their own facts.

If neither granted nor proscribed

If neither granted nor proscribed, then such a right is just sitting there waiting to be declared and taken.

Let's face it, natural laws are actually human declarations. And most sensible folks will probably be willing to concede that history suggests that we'll keep making (up) more.

But...

If neither granted nor proscribed, then such a right is just sitting there waiting to be declared and taken.

The relevant argument is that it is proscribed by the Constitution. And SCOTUS so ruled, in 1869. See below.

Six of one...reality bites back

If one grants that the states had a Constitutional "right" to secede, then after secession the seceded states quickly become hostile belligerents, and those who seceded after the attack on Fort Sumter became traitors. If you have the right, we have the right to come kick your ass. (Mighty generous of us to restore the rebel states to full status and let them resume self-governance!) If one does not grant such a right exists in the Constitution, then it was indeed a "civil war," and falls under the insurrection clause. Which clause itself seems to argue against secession as a right.

We don't need to reach the secondary question of treason at all to address secession. Lincoln was NOT the first president to make the assertion of the supremacy of Union over state secessionism. That would be Andrew Jackson during the Nullification Crisis of 1832, a wee bit earlier. And even earlier than that the Federalists killed themselves off as a party after their secessionist proposals of 1814 were made public, even though in the final count they decided against it.

The South itself prevented secessions from the Confederacy by military force and martial law, just as the North did with Maryland, which considerably undercuts their own argument. And the North "permitted" (welcomed) the secession of West Virginia from Virginia and the CSA, and admitted West Virginia as a state. The North never declared war on the South even though the South declared war on the North, and the North instructed its foreign ambassadors to tell foreign nations that it was a case of rebellion and insurrection, not a valid secession.

You will indulge in no expressions of harshness or disrespect, or even impatience concerning the seceding States, their agents, or their people. But you will, on the contrary, all the while remember that those States are now, as they always heretofore have been, and, notwithstanding their temporary self-delusion, they must always continue to be, equal and honored members of this Federal Union, and that their citizens throughout all political misunderstandings and alienations, still are and always must be our kindred and countrymen. --Sec'y of States Seward to the US minister to Great Britain, April 10, 1861"

I'm really surprised you haven't gotten to Texas v. White yet, though. The question of secession has actually come before SCOTUS. While many may (and do!) disagree vehemently with that decision, it does, nonetheless, stand. Barring a new ruling from the court, there is no Constitutional right of secession.

[You're correct to doubt Black's account. One should not get one's accounts of American history and opinions on Constitutional law from Biblical scholars...]

interesting stuff

That's pretty interesting that there's a relevant scotus ruling, which solidly suggests an answer to the legal question of what rights the law currently recognizes. Still, your account above does tend to lend credence to the notion that folks secede for the same reason that a dog licks his.... . The rights and the laws are the clothing, but if push comes to shove later on, it's the actions that really count. In some respects your account reads like a story where might makes right.

Presumedly, if the Confederacy had actually been successful in spinning itself off, we'd have come to some sort of accomodation with them by now.

I guess what I'm saying is that in many cases where a splinter group wants to secede, they might be better served worrying about having the physical means to make it stick than the written permission. IOW, it's always possible that the answer to "you have no right to do this" will be "what are you gonna do about it." :-)

LOL

Presumedly, if the Confederacy had actually been successful in spinning itself off, we'd have come to some sort of accomodation with them by now.

Yeah. By conquering them. There was simply no way that there would not be ongoing violent conflict leading to war--the space available for national expansion was the same for both parties. We were fighting that one the hard way in Kansas well before Sumter.

what I meant

Sort of my point...that there was enough at stake that conflict had a sense of inevitability. It was unlikely to be resolved by dueling lawyers, diplomats, what have you.

FWIW, what I meant in that quote was that if we hadn't beaten them into submission and they had endured as an independent, we probably would have found a way to live with that with the passage of time.

In other words, regardless of what the laws said, we'd have to come to accept it with the passage of much time if we found we couldn't change it.

Of course, ya never know. If Taiwan endures in a similar form to its present state for a couple hundred years, will China just say OK fine, whatever, be that way? Or will we still be chewing detente 2 centuries from now? People can be stubborn.

Tully, I've only had time to

Tully,
I've only had time to skim it, but if I'm reading it correctly, White alludes to a sort of Tenth Amendment argument (since the right to secede inheres in the nature of sovereignty, and since that power and right is not expressly foreclosed by the Constitution, "though the powers of the States were much restricted, still, all powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," 74 U.S. at 725) and in the same breath, the Court rejected that argument on an original understanding premise:

the preservation of the States, and the maintenance of their governments, are as much within the design and care of the Constitution as the preservation of the Union and the maintenance of the National government. The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States. When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States.

74 U.S. at 725-6

A state is more than merely a state government; the two are distinct. Thus, "Texas continued to be a State, and a State of the Union, notwithstanding" its declared secession from the union and the liquidation of its state government. I think I can agree with that. :)

yep yep

They don't say that a state can't leave, they say a state must have the permission of the Union to leave, that they cannot simply do so unilaterally. Once the people of the state become American citizens via statehood, they remain Americans, and the state remains part of the United States, regardless of any rebellion or revolution on the part of the state government. The state and its people exist independent of state government as part and parcel of the UNITED States. Jackson said much the same in 1832, when he sent warships to North Carolina to enforce the tariffs.

I didn't notice if SCOTUS advanced their decision with support form the "guarantee of republican government" clause. As I said, a lot of people disagree with the Texas v. White decision, particularly state's rights folks--but the decision explicitly states that there is NO Constitutional right of secession, and stands. SCOTUS has ruled.

Referencing that later post, this is also why the "non-representatives" should most certainly not have votes, and part of why they are not states. With the exception of DC, they retain the potential of becoming independent and leaving the Union, something the states do not. Also reference the Phillipines, part of the US for several decades before their independence.

I recently berated someone who said that US soil was never invaded and occupied during WW2, nor attacked after Pearl Harbor. Which is dead wrong--California and Oregon both had attacks, if not big ones, one quarter of our enemy-sunk shipping was attacked and sunk in U.S. coastal waters, and the Japanese occupied the Aleutians and many of our Pacific island possessions. They most certainly invaded and occupied the Phillipines while it was U.S. territory. The Phillipines and Aleutians were fully as much a part of the United States as Hawaii was at the time....

But I digress.

At the risk of revisiting

At the risk of revisiting even more dead blog history, there were actual documented Nazi landings from U-boat crews on Long Island, NY and Ponte Vedra Beach, Fl in 1942.

Ah, the dangers of seeing old posts revisited when I am bored.

Is SCOTUS be-bopping and scatting here?

Simon, based on what you've excerpted, this feels like construction, but I'm comparatively unfamiliar with the constitution. Is there a place elsewhere in the Constitution where it explicits states that the Union is insoluble (w/o consent)?

In particular, this phrase:

The Constitution, in all its provisions, looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States.

I mean, does the Constitution "look to" this, or does it state that this is the case? Or is there at least a place where a number of provisions are worded so that it would be unreasonable to presume anything other than that the formation of the union must be taken to be a one way street for the vast majority of intents and purposes?

Assorted places

Key phrase--"in all its provisions"

In the preamble, "MORE perfect union," which the court rightly references back to the Articles of Confederation. Farther on, common defence and general welfare. Suppress insurrections. "Cases of rebellion." The entirety of Art 1 Section 10. The Tenth Amendment argument of a "right to rebel" runs into the federal duty of suppressing insurrection and rebellion. And so on. C'mon, it's not THAT long a read.

The Court is saying that one does not need to explicitly ban secession when the entirety of the Constitution blatantly presumes the perpetuity of states in the Union.

Certainly

Certainly its construction - I think it's more of an original understanding argument than it's textual exegesis - it's similar to what the court has said about sovereign immunity, this idea that there are some aspects of the Constitution that aren't explicitly written anywhere in the text, and can't be directly inferred from the structure, but which were clearly understood at the time of the framing. So, for example, you can't directly infer from the text or structure what this "judicial power" that Article III gives to the Federal Courts is - to answer that, you have to know what "the judicial power" meant in 1788. Justice Frankfurter had a great explanation of this point in Coleman v. Miller:

In endowing this Court with 'judicial Power' the Constitution presupposed an historic content for that phrase and relied on assumption by the judiciary of authority only over issues which are appropriate for disposition by judges ... Both by what they said and by what they implied, the framers of the Judiciary Article gave merely the outlines of what were to them the familiar operations of the English judicial system and its manifestations on this side of the ocean before the Union. Judicial power could come into play only in matters that were the traditional concern of the courts at Westminster and only if they arose in ways that to the expert feel of lawyers constituted 'Cases' or 'Controversies.' It was not for courts to meddle with matters that require no subtlety to be identified as political issues. 1 And even as to the kinds of questions which were the staple of judicial business, it was not for courts to pass upon them as abstract, intellectual problems but only if a concrete, living contest between adversaries called for the arbitrament of law.

307 U.S. at 460 (Frankfurter, dissenting).

My view of textualism - and this is an open invitation for Marglar to jump in - is that it is the text that controls, but in order to know what the text means, you have to know what the words and phrases that make up the text mean. That's easy if the statute defines its terms. And it's easy if you're construing a statute that passed yesterday, because it's written in a language whose twists, turns and conventions we are intimately familiar with as reasonable users of the English language. But when construing a text from an older era, you have to figure out what that language meant at the time. Once you've determined what the text means (originalism), the text controls (textualism). That's a kind of half-assed expression of my view of it, but it hopefully gets the idea across.

In suppose that someone who believed in applying a strict construction would have to reject White, which I imagine most of the people who advocate strict construction would be fine with, but then, they'd also have to reject a line of cases I imagine they very much do like, the cases in which the Rehnquist court pushed an instauration of state sovereign immunity, premised on the same sort of analysys (summed up in Alden v. Maine: "We have ... sometimes referred to the States? immunity from suit as 'Eleventh Amendment immunity.' The phrase is convenient shorthand but something of a misnomer, for the sovereign immunity of the States neither derives from nor is limited by the terms of the Eleventh Amendment. Rather, as the Constitution?s structure, and its history, and the authoritative interpretations by this Court make clear, the States? immunity from suit is a fundamental aspect of the sovereignty which the States enjoyed before the ratification of the Constitution, and which they retain today (either literally or by virtue of their admission into the Union upon an equal footing with the other States) except as altered by the plan of the Convention or certain constitutional Amendments").

Lilncoln said they could secede -- if they did it legally

Lincoln said the slave states could secede -- if they did it legally.

You can't do it by violence -- or threats. Thats what they did the first time.

If the slave rapers had got a Constitutional Amendment that they could secede - the issue would be settled. Or even if they got the USSC to issue a ruling to that effect -- the South could have seceded without LIncoln lifting a finger.

But the Confederates used force, violence, and Lincoln had an oath and tenacity to put down insurection.

You have a right to divorce your wife-- but you dont have the right to shoot her. You have the right to withdraw your money out of a bank -- but you dont have the right to get it by gun point. If you have a dispute with your bank --you have to take it to court. You have to do it legally.

The South were so used to using violence -- against slaves, against anyone who advocated freedom, that violence was their first choice, their automatic response.

You can be sure they won't do that again. In 150 years, not one Southern state has fired on a US military base after the election didnt go the way the South wanted.

And you wont see any Southern state do that. Lincoln got his message heard.

For all the bravado of the South -- for all their tributes to those who used violence, notice they aren't doing that again.

Got a citation for that?

Got a citation for that?

Sovereignty can only be relinquished by clear express intent.

Any competent lawyer can argue the law to mean anything he wants. For this reason, sovereign states can only recognize another sovereign state-- or relinquish their sovereignty or to it-- by EXPRESS LANGUAGE of such intent.

For example, consider Article I of the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes< all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

So we see, the treaty EXPRESSLY acknowledges each colony as a sovereign state, and relinquishes Britain's claim over it. There is no question of Great Britain's intention.

Now, let's compare this to the Constitution. To begin with, the (sovereign) states made the Constitution-- not the other way around. So the states would each remain sovereign unto itself-- unless they similarly made a clear and express declaration to transfer their sovereignty to another nation, and relinquish their own.

However, a simple reading of the Constitution reveals that it nowherewhere clearly or expressly acknowledges the USA as a sovereign state-- nor is there any clear and express relinquishment any state's sovereignty.

Therefore, the USA obviously is a voluntary union among sovereign states (i.e. separate nations)-- it did not become a single nation of subordinate states. (Of course, again, any lawyer can argue that the Constitution implies this.

(This is why sovereignty can only be transferred clearly and expressly; i.e. since otherwise, national sovereignty would be a mere legal argument, rather than an absolute and clear boundary between nations-- i.e. any nation could claim sovereignty over any other nation, simply by making a similar claim.... and then likwise saying that the pesky legal details were "settled on the battlefield..." in short, all national sovereignty would cease to exist, being supplanted by law of the jungle).

So in conclusion, the Constitution does not preclude secession; for under it they remain sovereign; and sovereign states are at liberty to secede from any union they please, being sovereign nations unto themselves... once again, by law.

This is why Lincoln found it necessary to claim that the states formed a "nation" in 1776, via the Declaration of Independence-- not 1787, via the Constitution. Of course this is obviously false; but anyone who said so from 1861-1866 could find themselves put in jail and tortured without trial; and after 1866, the federal takeover was so complete that the truth didn't matter anymore.

However despite that, even pro-Lincoln law professors today don't agree with with Lincoln's hollow argument. Instead, they admit that each state was sovereign before the Constitution-- but and try to claim that they formed a single nation via the Constitution.

But as I've proven above, this is equally hollow: i.e. the Constitution doesn't form the states into a single nation either, since it doesn't clearly and expressly say so-- and again, sovereign states can only give up their sovereignty by clear and express intent-- not by a mere lawyer's argument of implied intent, backed up by sufficient military force to crush any opposition.

In short... the Constitution doesn't legally preclude any state from seceding, for, a state's sovereign power binds the law-- NOT the other way around, i.e. the law does not bind a state's sovereign power.

In conclusion, Abraham Lincoln was, in reality, just like Saddam Hussein: i.e. a president who claimed that another nation was part of HIS nation, by law-- and so TOOK it by force, based on his mere trumped-up argument.

But just like Saddam Hussein's war didn't change Kuwait's sovereignty under the law, Lincoln's war didn't change the legal sovereignty of the Confederate states-- or any other state in the Union; on the contrary, it only suppressed them... and indeed, any discussion of such, by putting any law-professor out of a job who questions federal sovereignty.

But that was then, this is now; and as they say, "the jig is up;" so it's time for the People of every state to stand up and denounce federal authority as sovereign, and take back their rightful status as sovereign nations. They don't have to secede; it just is once more an option; only this time, the federal government can't do anything about it-- since it can no longer suppress free speech through violence and intimidation, thanks to the technology of the era.

So if the federal government tries to invade a state, it can simply declare such to be an act of WAR by the USA against a sovereign nation-- not "rebellion" by a subordinate state, as the USA claimed in 1861; only this time, everyone will know it.

This may work for the

This may work for the original 13 states and possibly Texas, but there is a problem to extend this argument beyond them. Most of the states emerged from being territory after purchases or treaty negotiations by the Federal government. These ares never had the original sovereignty that you attempt to assign to them. Yet, there is still a question if the assenting to a Perpetual Union in the Articles of Confederation was a de facto relinquishment of international sovereignty.

Sovereignty is also a matter of external acknowledgment. This is something the Confederate States of America did not receive. Your comparison with Kuwait fails this test since Kuwait was a recognized as a sovereign state by external international entities. One can not create something and declare it sovereign and it be so. The South African attempt to create Buntustan as homelands was never recognized beyond South Africa. The CSA was recognized as a belligerent state by the British, but this does not grant sovereign recognition.

The international sovereignty of a state only occurs within the recognition process of the external international system. Therefore, if a state declares itself sovereign and no longer part of the union, it would depend upon external recognition that has been essentially codified into recognition from the United Nations in the current international structure unless it intends to operate as a rouge state. It might be more likely for the Navajo Indian Tribe to assert its sovereignty and have it recognized than a state within in the United States. As far as states are viewed from the outside, they are simple administrative units within the recognized nation-state of the USA.

This may work for the

This may work for the original 13 states

Then the Union is not a sovereign nation, which is the whole enchilada right there; the rest is salsa, i.e. secondary.

Likewise, 4 of those seceding states-- namely Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia-- were among the original 13, so the confederate states were pretty much from their share of land anyway: i.e. 4/13 of everything, give or take; so it's rather a moot point regarding "who owned what." The war was just a land-grab against sovereign states, plain and simple; and that's really all there is to it.

This means that we live under a regime whose national authority is dictated to us by sheer brute-force, and not by the original intentions of the Founders: i.e. it's more akin to the Soviet Union than the "sweet land of liberty" that they claim.

Let me know how that works

Let me know how that works out for you, Brad.

Please, let's hear more of

Go pick your cotton for massah, Bobby.

How would we be better off?

Why would I be better off if my state seceded? Is it really better for me to have to have a passport and a visa to travel next door to Mississippi? To have to go through a currency exchange when I travel to the outlet mall one state over? Perhaps have to pay some tariffs or import duties when I come back home from my shopping spree in Vegas? Why would I be safer from foreign enemies if all I could count on for my defense was the army my own state could afford to field on its own?

I'm perfectly happy with the union as a whole, as are the overwhelmingly vast majority of Americans today, no matter how fed up we may be with current national politics. So I'll stick with what we've got rather than foment a forcible divorce between some of the states, thank you very much.

>Why would I be better off if

Funny, that's almost exactly how the Soviet-citizens defended the greatness of Communism during the Cold War... and quite telling-- of how denial isn't just a river in Egypt; and how the $12-trillion national debt isn't just going away, or how the US was dragged into the Civil and World wars against the popular will... but who cares? What happens in Vegas, STAYS in Vegas, right? Too bad that doesn't go for the states, resulting in the USA becoming a global empire in the brink of collapse.

Enjoy your koool-aid, Pat (clearly short for "Cleo-PAT-ra, queen of de-Nile). They say the end of freedom will come with not a shout but a whisper, but you clearly are shouting loud and clear-- methinks too much, since I didn't even recommend that your state secede... you did: obviously a Freudian slip, i.e. voicing a desire or truth that you're too afraid to admit.

I simply mentioned the FACT that states have the sovereign right to secede, and you immediately launch into an overly-emphatic boast about how happy and perfect your life is under the federal thumb, and how dreadful it would be if you ran your own life. Sorry, no sale. Perhaps you got cavity-searched in an airport, and you're in denial of the conflict with how this equates to "liberty and justice for all--" as you were forced to recite all those years, before you even had a clue about the obvious contradiction between forcing and pledging (or liberty, for that matter).

Do yourself a favor, and put away your fife and drum when trying to form a reasoned argument... clearly, Yankee Doodle "went to town" on your logic.

rant on

I simply mentioned the FACT that states have the sovereign right to secede,

Well, you claimed it, anyway. But demonstrated it to be a fact? Not so much. Unless "proof by using ALL CAPS" is a new chapter in 21st century logic textbooks. I think Stalin used all caps, didn't he?

Your style of discussion does not seem to me to be geared towards reason, logic, or persuasion in any meaningful sense. Insults, ridicule, name-calling, inapt comparison.

You look, smell, and quack like an angry troll. Logic dictates to me that therefore... .

Funny, I just had an argument

Funny, I just had an argument with a Republican over his claim that the GOP finally has a more credible position to define "Liberal" than the new Left.....

Then I read Brad and feel much better about my response to that claim. Yes, the GOP has finally reached a point where their record going back to Lincoln gives them credibility in defining Liberalism. Interesting tipping point.

And then I read Brad (and many others).....

He's lucky he didn't say that directly to Bobby as I think he would now have whole other concept of "massah".

What exactly was his argument based on, Max?

Frankly, I find that ridiculous. The GOP used to be the explicit liberal party, but things switched around duringn the 1930's. Don't get me wrong, the modern GOP embraces many things that could be included in the broad liberal platform (thanks to the liberal consensus), but the idea that today's GOP can still lay claim to Lincolnesque liberalism, in way the modern liberal Democrats cannot? I don't buy it.

Well Raf, the claim was that

Well Raf, the claim was that today, not only are Republicans as tolerant and cool in general over most social issues (forget abortion, amnesty without borders, and gay marriage) as Democrats, but they actually defend Free Speech (Dems only when it suits them), Human Rights, Free Enterprise, Greater personal Liberty, etc. Just ask a Libertarian. Not sure gayness, drugs are deal breakers to gain power.

In short, one said, today's moderate and socially liberal Libertarian is a far better take on the Liberalism of the Consensus than today's DEMOCRATIC PARTY. That does say something about Dems moving the bar. Now if the even more socialistic view of society reflected in the voice on the Left is the new definition of Liberal, at what point do you conceded to the Libertarians, or moderate Republicans the notion of Liberal?

But then again as I said, I am reminded of the spectrum of Republicans including Brad. I am not sure this new claim by one conservative Republican for their being better defenders of a Classical Liberalism for the modern society, represents anything like political or social reality. I can wish however....

Just a reminder, folks: Right

Just a reminder, folks: Right below the comment form, it says: "When in doubt, see Rule #1." And rule 1, in turn, says "Play nice and respect others. Opinions and debate are good, facts are better, name-calling … [is] Out." Thanks.

Yes Simon, you let your

Yes Simon, you let your little trolls attack me, and then you censor my responses like a typical on-line troll's nest; and then ironically, you chime in "now let's play nice--" while their attacks stand uncensored.

Well, no matter-- you all DON'T matter.

Brad, be polite and you can

Brad, be polite and you can make whatever points you like. Be rude and to that extent, you'll be "censored"--or whatever euphemism appeals to you. That's why some of your comments were held back and others remain published. See how this works?

That goes for everyone else, too. Our house, our rules.

Sorry simon, little trolls?

Sorry Simon,

little trolls? If we all don't matter then take a crap elsewhere dude....and stop expecting someone hands you the toilet paper.

Who are you, a sovereign nation or the Brad who wrote this? Interesting comment thread.

You could always fly a plane into an IRS building....

Bad spelling in your brilliant disclaimer...

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