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Peggy Noonan contemplates why Bush has lost lustre even with erstwhile supporters, concluding that many Americans "fear[] that when history looks back on this moment, on the past few presidents and the next few, it will say: Those men were not big enough for the era." (In response, Andrew Sullivan suggests curing a case of the sniffles with a nice, hot cup of arsenic; measured by any serious metric, Obama is lilliputian by the standards of any era's needs. See posts passim.)
This argument seemed particularly worth repeating:
[In] a democracy[, when y]ou vote, you do the best you can with the choices presented, and you show the appropriate opposition to the guy who seems most likely to bring trouble. (I think that is one reason for the polarity and division of politics now. No one knows in his gut that the guy he supports will do any good. But at least you can oppose with enthusiasm and passion the guy you feel in your gut will cause more trouble than is needed! This is what happens when the pickings are slim: The greatest passion gets funneled into opposition)
That's true. I'm not (yet) thrilled by any of the GOP contenders who are likely to get the nomination, but I'm horrified by every contender on the other side (not frightened yet? You will be). That said, it's far from true that there aren't men big enough for the era alive and well in America, or candidates that I could be enthusiastic about. Regular readers will know that I'd love to put Newt in the Oval Office, but it's quite difficult to imagine politically (remember: magic numbers, Newt fans), which puts us back in Noonanland, where we're basically motivated by fear of what will become of us if the other rabble gets in than optimism that whoever our candidate will be a major-league hitter. Which isn't invalid, but it's not nearly as satisfying.
You are just such a
You are just such a predictable partisan water carrier, Simon. It keeps you from being interesting.
Horrified? By Bill Richardson? By Hillary Clinton? Barack Obama? Horrified?
Good lord, man, if you're not on the GOP payroll you ought to be. I mean, seriously. Horrified? Booga booga booga, run away little girl, it's Joe Biden!
Out of curiosity, have you ever written anything that wasn't precisely in line with the Republican party?
LOL (typos revised)
Just tell em your middle name is Curtis.
My objection is this: as long as we vote solely AGAINST the opposition rather than FOR principle and policy, there is less and less continuity in foreign policy and our NSS. I think Simon would rather not meet in the middle, but retool to the Right while demonizing the candidates on the Left (not that they're an inspiring set). The fact that there are no great candidates on the Right after years of our "war on terror" who can come forward with centrist principles to lead us forward together like Ike or Reagan should say something about the Republican learning curve. Maybe Simon can address the creationist credentials of the leading Republican candidates. If after all the polarization and the threat it leaves us with global blowback, one still advocates vilifying the opposition "as a whole" to inspire Republican voter turnout, its a sad day for America. Biden and Hillary talk about a Sudan no fly zone. Obama has the nerve to talk about covering the uninsured. Hillary wants to leave troops in Iraq and has fought her base more than anyone but McCain has on the Right. Look where that got him with 80% of America against deportation OR starvation. I don't hear Fred talking about Mexican pipelines being blown up by Leftists. I don't even hear much about Iran or Syria anymore. Don't vilify, stand up. Bush did what he did because Republicans did not wrestle with him enough. If what he tried to do had merit, improve on it and be more forceful and determined. This blame game and vilifying is getting quite boring and dangerous. If you want to pack SCOTUS with Conservatives to institute a minority reversal regarding abortion rights, you have to earn it by delivering enough success to the PEOPLE to get re-elected. To do that requires governing wisely and deliverung above average execution. Democrats did not induce the litany of mistakes and blunders. I suspect that if the tables were turned, Simon might be calling for impeachment.
Obama has the nerve to talk
And it ought to take nerve, as Tully's post and subsequent discussion earlier in the week noted. Dr. Helen's profiled this week at NormBlog,
and she labels the theory "[f]rom each according to his ability, to each according to his need" as "the main threat to the future peace and security of the world." I'm hard pressed to disagree.
I can't say I much care. I'm not a theocon.
Ah yes, the central paradox of the pro-choice argument: even though abortion enjoys massive popular support, any attempt to return the issue to the democratic process is verbotem.
Arguably, the people voted for at least two more votes against Roe than are on the court today, had Reagan and Bush not goofed with Kennedy and Souter. Not that Souter is a gooof as a Justice, I think any Democratic President would be proud to have nominated him, but he was a goof for Bush.
I've said that I would have supported impeachment procedings after Bush signed BCRA having stated his belief that it was unconstitutional, on the grounds that it violated both the take care clause and his oath of office.
The fortunes of hanging chads...
I too did not wish you to waste a decent Friday night. I hope you didn't find anything disrespectful in my comments.
As far as your highlights of my comments, let me respond in order. No proposal ends up as the finished product. Not even the McCain-Kennedy bill. I repeat, Obama at least talks about covering the uninsured, which remains the single greatest portion of healthcare increases. I believe this is correct. I do not hear anything but fear of reform coming from the Right. I did not say I endorse Obama's plan specifically, but I do think the importance of healthcare reform should be commended more than opposition to gay marriage or flushing embryos down the toilet. The American people want reform and the conservatives offer tort reform. The Republicans aren't responding to Middle Class anxiety and the Democrats are, at least in talking points.
You may not care about creationist credentials, but apparently, other conservatives do. Perhaps that is one reason a large sector of America turns them off. I really don't want national security evaluations being made by someone who thinks women came from a male rib. It's really that simple. Of course, the Republican candidates could just be pandering to the crowd that believes earth was formed some 6000 years ago. Could these people actually understand GW data, which goes back tens of thousands of years? This isn't just a minor point. Would you approve a conservative judge that supports Intelligent Design faster than one with a few Liberal ideas?
I have no problem with putting abortion to a national vote. 1. You would lose and 2. If you win, the fruits of such religious determination of individual rights, that a one-month-old fetus has a soul, will quickly become apparent and reversed faster than Prohibition.
And if people in Florida who wanted Gore knew how to vote in 2000, there goes two conservative judges, because Bush loses. You can't say that 9/11 wouldn't have given Gore the edge rather than Republicans in 2004. Perhaps Roberts and Alito should be called the hanging chad justices. I don't think that all Republicans want Roe over turned. You say you are not a Theocon, but certainly, abortion is a religious issue for you. I am confused, or perhaps you are. I don't know. Republicans hurt themselves these last several years and now Democrats might get a chance for less conservative judges. If winning in 2008 was so important, perhaps conservatives could have put more pressure on Bush policies and gotten them to work better.
I do applaud the record you listed. I was responding to your vilification above. I don't buy the attitude. It's right out of the Rove/Kos playbook. And I could have easily vilified Bush and company with far more evidence than your attack on Obama and the Democratic field. Yes, Brownie?s doing a fine job. Conservatives have a responsibility for these last several years.
You may not care about
If they're doing their job right, it is an unusual case where it ought to matter whether they agree with liberal political ideas or conservative ones; you're assuming a model of jurisprudence in which judges pick the outcomes they prefer, which is precisely what (most) legal conservatives argue is illegitimate. It's the liberal mode of jurisprudence that asks "what's the best outcome here" to decide the case, and if you assume that approach, then sure, it matters whether you pick political conservatives or political liberals, but you can't assume that approach. I reject it. Many of us reject it. It's irrelevant whether a judge supports intelligent design as a political matter. Even in an estalishment clause challenge to teaching creationism in schools, if the judge's views on creationism are affecting how he's ruling, he ought to get out of the case. So - no, I don't care what they believe about creationism. I don't care if they believe in Genesis, Darwin or if they don't have any particular view at all. You're right that it isn't "just a minor point" - it's far less important than "minor." With so much to worry about that matters, it seems inefficient to worry about such frippery.
I have a problem putting abortion to a national vote, because it's a state matter, to be decided state-by-state to the tastes of the citizens of those states. Like gay marriage, it is an issue that has little if any place at the federal level within the present constitutional schema. And while I don't doubt that in many states abortion will remain legal, in no state - not one - will it remain the abortion-on-demand model presently demanded by the Supreme Court. And that is the answer to the paradox: no rational person would rely on a supermajoritarian device to maintain a policy they believed commanded majority support, so the conclusion is unavoidable that NARAL and so forth simply don't believe their own propaganda. They and individual supports may not be aware of this on a conscious level, but they are fully aware that once abortion returns to the democratic process, it will be much more strictly regulated than it is now in at least 49 of 52 jurisdictions (counting D.C. and the military as separate jurisdictions under control of Congress), and I think all of them.
Polls have repeatedly shown that when the general public are asked if they want Roe overturned they say no, but when asked about specific regulations on abortion which are incompatible with the Roe-Casey regime, and that could not be implemented without overruling that line of cases, the same voters support many of those measures. Public support for Roe is a sham, a facade, a testimony to the propaganda skills of those who support abortion on demand and a public that has largely been bamboozled by it. When you actually present the issues to voters - including Republicans - the real picture emerges: yes, there are majorities for keeping abortion legal, at least in some circumstances, but there are also clear majorities for regulating it in ways that amoung to a drastic reduction. And as I said above, NARAL et al know it, which is why they fight so desparately to keep the matter out of the political process.
You're just plain wrong. It isn't.
Of course you can argue that. The 2004 result wasn't instantly foreordained by 9/11. It's absurd to just say "whoever the incumbent was would have been reelected" - Why? There's no basis for that at all. Because they're a wartime President? Guess what: we were attacked more than once in the 1990s, by the same people, and Bill Clinton didn't characterize himself as a wartime President. The determination that Al Queda was waging war against us was the right one, but it was Bush who acknowledged it, and it's by no means certain Gore would have done so. So to answer the question requires an assesment of how Gore would have conducted himself and the country after 9/11, how (and if) he would have responded, and since that is all within the realm of speculation, by definition you can make any argument within the realm of reason.
That theory would be valid if they had been appointed in Bush's first term. They weren't, so it isn't. (And one has to suspect that certainly Alito and very possibly Roberts would have been serious contenders for the nomination whichever Republican was doing the nominating).
Specifically, the President and the Congressional Republican Party have hurt the party these last several years - and they have done so by turning their backs on the party. Out of control spending and amnesty are not Republican policies, even when voted for by Republican politicians.
Well, I have a busy day Simon, but...
Thanks for the reply. First, Intelligent Design speaks directly to the reasoning power of a person. Let us not make it complicated. Such reasoning is inherently faulty and such a person cannot be expected to suddenly have their full faculties when approaching complicated legal questions. I understand however, the point you make about creating goals v interpreting the Constitution. That is whole different thread.
Abortion becomes a national problem when the poor must find a way to another state for a medical procedure. You know such a plan will effect the poor the most. The legal problems involved in law actions bvetween states would be a pain. The Conservative grounds for rejecting State power concerning gay marriage brings this issue up. I think it is a fair question to the Nation, not States, but as far as gun control and other Federal regulations, you have a point. State regulation of abortion might be the way to go if Roe is thrown out.
If you think a fertilized embryo has a soul, your belief MUST be religiously based. You have no scientific evidence.
Gore is a veteran. It is quite wild to think he would not have invaded Afghanistan. He was never particularly dovish and given his ego?..With less discord over Iraq (he probably wouldn't have invaded), there is substantial reasoning behind his likely victory in 2004, given the fact that most Americans side with Democratic domestic issues. It was the war on terror that bought Bush the victory in 2004. You would have to assume Democrats duplicated Republican corruption, the images from Iraq and well as other troubling mistakes to lose. My guess about Gore is probably more logical than your prediction.
Roberts and Alito would not have made it if one buys my thinking above about Gore winning in 2004 having been the beneficiary of 9/11 like Bush was. I think Democrats might have taken the same tact as Republicans about being the WAR leaders and that AQ hadn?t attacked us so far.
The last is your strangest point (though I see how much you advocated YOUR opinion in opposition to Bush). Had conservatives made themselves heard loudly, I can't image Republican leadership would have ignored them. Had Crystal and others taken to the internet, print and talk radio, things would have been different. Instead, their time was consumed vilifying the Democrats and adding to the polarization instead of finding common ground with moderate Democrats in questioning and reforming Bush approaches. I do not buy that conservatives did everything they could to curtail the many mistakes. It seems that Meirs provoked them and then immigration, but really Simon, the nation does not want to deport 12 million illegals nor watch them resort to crime or starvation. If it really is just a matter of tort reform, gay marriage, pro-life, deportation and less taxes, the Republicans lose. To support the President in going to Iraq and now return to the typical conservative isolationism (not that you advocate this) is absurd flip flopping.
Anyway, we can argue this later, but thank you for not getting offended and always being willing to discuss the issues. I actually have learned a number of things from you and in light of your list of posts, you do have an independent streak that is honorable even if you think sniper rifles are a Constitutional right for every ?qualified? American.
News flash, Max
even if you think sniper rifles are a Constitutional right for every ?qualified? American.
What anti-gunners call "sniper rifles" us out here in the rest of the nation call deer rifles. Ain't no real diff. Indeed, I often use a semi-auto M-14 as a deer rifle. (Though I don't use the 20-round magazine when hunting deer.) I'm comfortable with it, the cartridge is correct, the accuracy is excellent, and the recoil less than lighter rifles. But a rifle is a rifle.
Other old military-issued favorites in wide use are the Mauser 98, the M1 carbine, and the M1 Garand.
No Flash Required
Yessiree, we've been here before...ha
Why is it that I have this picture of you? Of course you're right. I was just "sniping Simon" with the sniper reference. I could have used an earlier reference like an RPG which you added at the time IS PRESENTLY regulated by laws consistent with the Constitution.
I still think an advanced sniper rifle and high tech ammo should be available to only "qualified" shooters, so I (and many) would say a certain amount of reasonable gun control seems prudent. I'm sure you don't explode the deer when you kill it, or are you really, nah, you couldn't be...
An "advanced sniper rifle"
An "advanced sniper rifle" is a deer gun with a scope. The same rifle I use for deer hunting, the M14 .308 aka NATO 7.62, is being used today in Iraq by US military snipers. They have much better scopes than I do, 'cause they don't have to buy their own. Though I hear some prefer that other high-tch advanced military sniper rifle, the Remington 700 model. :-)
"High tech" ammo? What in the hell is that? Body-armor-piercing handgun rounds are already illegal for sale to the public under federal law, and almost all regular rifle rounds can penetrate normal unplated vests. Various states banned Teflon-coated handgun rounds in a total panic reaction to the demonization of the KTW handgun round, which hadn't been available to the general public since before I left grade school. But the Teflon isn't what makes the KTW a penetrator, that's just the coating on the armor-piercing STEEL core. And they've been sold exclusively to law enforcement agencies since 1966.
Shooters hunting deer with "advanced sniper rifles" are indeed "qualified." It's called a Hunter Safety course. I believe it's required in order to purchase a hunting license in all fifty states.
(Number of American police officers killed to date by the much-touted evil Teflon-coated "cop killer" armor-piercing handgun rounds fired through their body armor: Zero. As in none. Ever.)
Oh, and blowing up deer
Oh, and blowing up deer obviously ruins the meat, making it pointless. Besides, I am taller than Yosemite Sam, my hair is no longer remotely that red, I shave and dress better, and unlike Sam I follow the One True Law of Gun Control. I hit what I aim at. :-D
Bugs would be dead if Sam had internet
Hunting American style.
Possible Rounds required to bring down North American game
Possible Rounds required for Quail hunting.
If that don?t work try this
A Good place to get your rocks off
An inquiry back in 1999 by Waxman
The logic behind the Brady opposition to large caliber weapons
I did not say .50 caliber ought to be banned outright. I would like to see ?qualified citizens? having that military grade privilege as well as those seeking military grade ammo. Do you need Teflon hollow point to hunt badgers? Do you need explosive bullets for hunting? I do not think the Constitution supports the fairly unqualified freedoms Americans have in possessing weapons that exceed the requirements of self-defense and hunting. Or are you arguing that citizens have a right to all and any weapon required to oppose tyranny? Then bring on the fully automatic and throw in a grenade launcher or two.
I would like to see
When the government is determining who is qualified to keep and bear arms, the point of the 2d amendment will have been turned inside out. Apropos:
Do you argue that the 2d Amendment was adopted to protect the right to hunt and to keep bad guys out of one's house with a .45? When they said that a "well regulated Militia ... [was] necessary to the security of a free State," do you think they meant in case the place was overrun by deer?
LMAO. The dreaded Barret
LMAO. The dreaded Barret again! Soon we will be overrun by street criminals carrying concealed $5000 five-foot-long 40-lb .50 cal sniper rifles! Obviously the weapon of choice.
Do you need Teflon hollow point to hunt badgers?
Badgers are right vicious bastards. I want everything I can get for them. But the item of choice at short range would be a 12 ga. and 000 shot, and at long range whatever's handy with good force transfer. Horses for courses, as they say. Right tool for the job, and all that. ;-)
Do you need explosive bullets for hunting?
Depends on the game. Actually for quail and dove I like the 20 ga with #8 shot, and for deer I prefer boat-tailed hollowpoints with high expansion indices. Better mass-force transfer and one-shot drop. Explosive bullets are better suited for self-defense handgun loads. Sadly, you can't buy them. Just tracers, which are excellent training aids but completely lousy anti-personnel rounds. And the authorities get so soggy and hard to light when you make your own explosive handgun rounds, which takes about two minutes per round on a slow day using...oh, wait, I really shouldn't talk about that, should I? People might get ideas. :-( Ah, well, at least we still have Glasers!
But I confess to overgunning at times. If I might encounter pheasant as well as quail, I'll take the 12 ga. and load with #6. Which incidentally is also about your best home-defense load. Doesn't tend to blow through walls and puncture the neighbors, but inside of twenty feet is still an ounce-plus of lead moving at 1400fps. The size of the shot isn't all that relevant at that range. Makes Heap Nasty Hole.
I do not think the Constitution supports the fairly unqualified freedoms Americans have in possessing weapons that exceed the requirements of self-defense and hunting.
You're wrong. But yours is not the controlling authority.
Or are you arguing that citizens have a right to all and any weapon required to oppose tyranny?
I don't recall ever having expressed that opinion, as much as it gets tossed out as a straw man by anti-gunners. Nor do I believe that's found in the 2nd Amendment. I believe the relevant decision refers to ordinary small arms as used by militia. Namely, pistols and rifles and shotguns, with full-auto being a somewhat contentious point and currently regulated but NOT banned. You do know that in most states you can indeed own full-auto sub-machine guns? Though you need to pay the proper BATFE license fees and transfer taxes on them, and undergo an FBI background check. Unless you have an FFL, in which case you're cool.
And did you know that the only time a legal full-auto was used in a crime in the last thirty years or so, it was a police-owned gun stolen by an officer who'd gone whacko?
I believe there have been all of 2 crimes in the last decade in which a .50 cal rifle was criminally fired, with no resulting injuries from the .50 cal. Compare to, say, the 9mm pistol, which can beat that number on any given day in most large cities. Or the even more infamous .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge, used in more mob hits than any other caliber.
Yes, the dreaded Barrett. We must certainly clamp down on that. It's a creeping menace.
Intelligent Design speaks
Well, I don't agree with that. This is a separate issue, but to reply briefly, I don't subscribe to creationism, but you're assuming the answer if you say that the fossil record proves the non-existence of God, because any entity that really does exist and really was powerful enough to create the entirety of the heavens and the earth is surely powerful enough to remain hidden if they so desire. It strikes me as the height of human arrogance (and for that matter, a repudiation of the history of science, whose repeated refutation of the assumptions of the past is its stock in trade) to assume that all that we perceive is all that there is. That a person is religiously faithful about the unknown, to my mind, in no way suggests there is something faulty with their ability to reason with the known. In my conception of the role of the judge, if they're doing their job right, their views on creationism - or whatever obfuscatory neologism they're using for it this week - is irrelevant.
Even assuming for sake of argument that is so, not every problem of national scope is ipso facto an appropriate subject for congressional action. Abortion becomes an appropriate subject of congressional action when it is (or becomes) one of the policy areas delegated to Congress by the Constitution of the United States, not merely because it's deemed important. Our Constitution is not one where a (perceived) need to act creates the power to act. The view that "'if a job has to be done to meet the needs of the people, and no one else can do it, then it is a proper function of the federal government' ... [is] an unqualified repudiation of the principle of limited government[,] [and an embrace of] the first principle of totalitarianism: that the state is competent to do all things and is limited in what it actually does only by the will of those who control the state." Goldwater, The Conscience of a Conservative (1990), 9-10 (quoting A. Larson, A Republican Looks At His Party (1956)).
(Ann thinks the commerce clause argument is easy; I disagree because I would overrule a lot more of extant commerce clause jurisprudence than would she. This isn't a one-way thing, either, it goes both ways - as I mentioned below, there is no more federal power to ban abortion than there is to mandate it.)
It's the only way to go, consistent with the Constitution we have today. Of course, I would want the individual states to limit it and do everything possible (which, as Guiliani is fond of pointing out, doesn't just mean back-end restrictions on abortion, but providing other and better options, and helping re-stigmatize abortion) to reduce or eliminate demand. In some ways it's unfortunate that we have to build the culture of life at the state levle, it'd be much easier to ban it outright at the federal level, but that's just not what the Constitution permits.
If you believe that there is no non-religious basis for morality, you must have a fairly dim view of atheists. ;)
The issue of abortion is conceptually simple, in the abstract, as I set out in response to Brian some time ago - we can't know when life begins, and there is no functional difference between killing a baby carried to term before delivery and killing it after delivery. All bar a few on the fringe agree with that. So at some point during gestation, a collection of cells becomes a living human child; since we cannot know when that is, we must err on the side of caution and assume that after the physical prerequisites are met -- a heartbeat and brain activity -- abortion is never justifiable except if continuing the pregnancy poses clear and certain harm to the mother (I hesistate to confine that to "physical harm," but since "mental harm" has historically been construed so broadly that the possibilty of post partum depression would justify an abortion under some standards of "non-physical harm"). Prior to that point, I'm willing to at least consider regulations, even though I find the enterprise somewhat distasteful (in this regard, unlike Brian's, my position really is somewhat moderate, insofar as it is distinguishable from the mainstream of the pro-life movement and cedes ground to the pro-choice side, at least theoretically).
None of this actually nor necessarily rests on theological grounds.
Non sequitur. And even if it weren't, the length and breadth of the administration's response to 9/11 was not merely to invade Afghanistan, was it? We don't know how Gore would have reacted. We don't even know how the electorate might have preferred to act in '04. All we know is how Bush reacted and that he was reelected, either in spite of or because of how he reacted to 9/11.
What is corruption for Republicans is situation normal for Democrats, who only discovered "fiscal discipline" (an absurd banner for them to wave) when it became a useful political weapon against GOP profligacy. If they've not forgotten it already, they will. (I should add that this doesn't apply to all Democrats, some of whom are far more constrained on spending, but on the whole, the Democratic Party is associated with federal power and federal spending, which the GOP's agenda - if not always its personnel - rejects.)
Again, as with abortion, this is an issue on which the same voters hold inconsistent views. An appeal to polls on such issues isn't really persuasive.
On souls...
If you think there even is such a thing as a "soul," your belief MUST be religiously based. I would be curious to see the scientific evidence you have for the existence of the soul...
Also, when "life" begins is a matter of definition, not science. Thus, it is a question of values, not science.
I agree with some of that. Pat
Simon says that believing a one-week-old fetus has a soul is a ?moral? insight and not a religious one. Aesop certainly didn't require souls to write moral stories. Obviously, Simon's moral insight defies the very nature of scientific observation because of his "morality's" immaterial roots in the notion of God. I doubt Simon is a Theosophist or a Paganist. I would argue quite the opposite is true about morality (that it is immaterial and requiring God).
Forgive me if I am a bit insulted by calling theism, morality. To me morality is quite self-evident in our irrepressible tendency towards altruism. Morality comes from the good and bad we see and the rational understanding of the value we learn through our experiences that justice promotes the good and opposes the bad. Good produces cooperation. Good produces better health. Good improves relations and human potential. There is much proof for these moral goods in the world. However if the greatest good is seen exclusively through faith, that so and so is the RIGHT pathway of souls to a God, and that a one-month-old fetus has such a soul, then I see how Simon's morality follows. But to call such morality not dependent on religious beliefs is rather absurd, don't you think? Not that Simon is necessarily wrong. I may in fact be going to Hell and just am deluded now. In any case, to posit a construct of an immaterial soul implies both an intellectual duality and a God. I would rather argue religion has no exclusive rights to morality, other than in its faith it has. An Atheist can clearly use the word sacred, noble, just and good with the same depth as a Theist, without needing a hereafter or a God to distinguish obvious right from wrong.
Science can determine the general time when a fetus becomes sufficiently self aware and complete to warrant the description of a person in the sense we attribute to ourselves (in a very general sense of personality, memory and self-awareness).
When does any individual?s life first begin? Maybe 3.5 billion years ago. There is nothing alive today that has not come directly without a single discontinuity through every preceding step starting long before the time earth was first created by God in the Bible. My natural abhorrence to the destruction of human potential leads me to the moral position that abortion is nothing like throwing out the garbage. On the flip side unlimited procreation is moral insanity. Aliens would have to come and exterminate us before our geometric increase filled up too much space. On the other hand, abortion is nothing like throwing out souls in any argument apart from a Theistic one. It does not violate any individual rights unless a fetus develops into an individual, consistent with reasonable scientific criteria of having sufficiently emerged from potential into actuality. Yes, values are involved, but they are not exclusively religious values or ones mutually exclusive to empirical understanding of neurology, cognition and embryology.
Simon says that believing a
Actually, that isn't what I said. I described my position and said it wasn't based on religion, which it isn't, not least because:
Simon is an agnostic, and has said so.
As noted above, you'll be in good company. ;)
Altruism is concern for the welfare of others. If one belives unborn children qualify as "others," being pro-life fits squarely within your own definition of morality.
It's worth noting as a general proposition that no argument can rest on pure reason. Michael Oakeshott didn't ever say this in as many words, I don't think, but I think it was the fundamental insight that underlies Rationalism in Politics that there ARE no purely rational arguments, and that every viewpoint ultimatley rests on certain axiomatic premises that can't be rationally explained or empirically verified. Even if you abstract to the highest level of generalism - "be excellent to one another," perhaps - that too rests on axiomatic beliefs that have no rational basis. Logic and rational argument necesssarily presume certain shared assumptions.
Genocide is bad
"Altruism is concern for the welfare of others. If one believes unborn children qualify as "others," being pro-life fits squarely within your own definition of morality."
They are not unborn children at one week. They are fetuses that are not yet "persons". If they have some genetic defects, their lives will be miserable. Being ?pro-life? by such altruistic general definitions could include bans against killing cows or even the release of sperm outside of conception. Let's save every egg and sperm and promote life to the fullest. You want to extend altruism to cover aborting first trimester fetuses at the expense of the mother's happiness. So altruism is directed towards the fetus (NOT YET A PERSON) and not the happiness and welfare of the mother who is a person.
I'm an agnostic too. I would even argue that by some criteria of altruism and in some cases, abortion protects the welfare of the "group" as does the altruism of punishment and enforcement. And by what logic would a pro-lifer flush down toilets the very possibility of extending life to the already living?
Simon, I could have sworn you mentioned a "soul" once, but if I was wrong, I am sorry. I believe you had expressed a belief in "soul" which I presume is immaterial by most definitions. That led me into the Theistic line. Didn?t you once say a one- month-old fetus had a soul?
I won't dare take on the rationality-cannot-produce-values argument now. So much for the self-evident approach. I declare these truths to be self-evident.....Sunday morning in the park calls. I will think about it to lower my stupidly quotient to acceptable levels, but I am convinced that empirical reality does produce values and morality. Murder is bad, uncontrolled murder threatens the very survival of the group. Life is good and death is bad (for the individual). Again, altruism, which is a quantifiable quality, I believe, is the basis of morality. Cooperation, competition, synergy, survival, punishment, enforcement, evolution all have characteristics of what we describe as "good". These concepts flow from the language of reason (a shared experiance), without which, we would have absolutely no morality whatsoever.
Science can articulate when a fetus shows signs of "being like a person". I do not see why this is so hard to understand. We should be able to measure when a fetus feels pain, how it reacts to stimuli etc., but I know this requires far more discussion than I can jot down now.
I'll be back. And enjoy the beautiful day which can fill us with the experience of the goodness of life and the benign indifference of the universe.
As you head for the park, Max...
Simply ponder this. That murder is bad is itself a value. It is not a forgone, rationally derived principle. Survival of the group is also a value. Many people do not, in fact, share it.
If one wishes to delve into biological imperatives, the only ultimate biological imperative is for one's genes to become more widespread. "A zygote is a gamete's way of making more gametes," to quote Heinlein, I believe.
To test this, consider the 8 year old, who keeps asking his parents "why." No matter how detailed the answer, there's always another "why" which can be asked, about anything. Why is life good and death bad? The only ultimate answer is "because" (as any parent quickly learns, after a greater or lesser effort at patience). And that "because" is the underlying value which must be simply asserted or taken from faith.
As for the fetus, it remains a matter of definition. Yes, science can articulate when a fetus shows signs of "being like a person," but only after you define what it means to "be like a person." If you define personhood as the ability to feel pain, then yes, science can probably tell us that. But science does not provide the definition itself.
Kindly define that, scientifically...
What defines "sufficiently" in this context? Which scientific definition of "self-awareness" do you use? What exactly does it mean, scientifically, to have a "sense of personality"?
You use that word "sufficiently" several times. It is a value-laden word.
And there are certainly non-religiously-based values, but there are ultimately no purely rational values.
Short answer
Sufficient means to satisfy adequately reasonable criteria. We have criteria for when a person is brain dead. We have criteria for when a person is bi-polar. We have criteria for many things. Do we not have criteria for self-awareness? Do we not have criteria for memory and reacting to stimuli? As far as personality, you answer to your name. You have habits and tendencies. Do you mean you do not understand what having a personality means? A robot doesn't have much personality. You cannot teach a fetus very much, not even to kick when you play Hendricks.
As far as science being without values, the very concept of ecology and altruism presents some problems with such exclusion. A "healthy" ecology doesn't seem to require values being brought in from non-rational sources. Such "health" seems rationally based. And what "other" sources are THEY? Some call CO2, pollution by importing values. It seems the "pollution" label has to do with the scientific claim such human CO2 is causing to the climate. Again the "badness" here is the empirical effect such warming might have on human happiness and health. In this case, I prefer we stick to scientific evidence instead of importing values more subjective.
I am sure that was an inadequate response. I'll try again later.
Good luck in quantifying
Good luck in quantifying what constitutes "harm." Even if you confine it to "physical harm." Lawyers shouldn't practice medicine. And most definitely, doctors should not practice law...
I'm a practicing agnostic myself, lacking both the faith to be sectarian and the ego to be atheist.
And there are certainly non-religiously-based values, but there are ultimately no purely rational values.
That rhythmic percussive noise you hear is applause from this direction.
Strap on your seatbelts,
Strap on your seatbelts, folks...
Well, let's see. There's the Nuclear Option, where I wrote repeatedly - both in comments and on my own blog (and indeed both subsequently and recently) that the senators and their supporters in the party were totally wrong as a matter of constitutional law and profoundly short-sighted as a matter of practical politics.
I suggested willingness to abolish the death penalty (opining not long ago that "the miscarriage of justice problem is serious, ... real, and I think ... intractable[,] ... so I'm afraid that I'm a reluctant fellow-traveller with the 'one mistake is too many' crowd"), defended the Ninth Circuit's ruling in Fields v. Palmdale School Dist. that "there is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children", told the lower court judges resisting Roper v. Simmons to take a hike (and for good measure dismayed Fern by arguing against electing judges, decidedly not a popular view for a Republican), agreed with Justices Stevens and Scalia in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld that one of the President's claims on executive power was almost fascetious (and with Justice Ginsburg that the court ought to have taken Padilla), offered a qualified defence of Iran, and argued vocally that the federal ban on partial birth abortion and the line item veto were unconstitutional.
Back when I was writing actively at Centerfield, I joined the call for Congressional investigation into the NSA programs, reaffirmed my commitment to term limits (which made you a marked man back in those days) and otherwise criticized them on spending, spending and more spending, and Tom DeLay (this is back before it was safe to do so, mind you).
Turning to my tenure here at SF, one of my very first posts explained why the FMA was DOA and so the GOP was SOL and ought to quit crying about it and do something more productive, asked awkard questions that the party didn't want to talk about, defended liberal activists chasing George Allen and Mike McGavick, continued the criticism of out of control spending (indeed, concluding that we deserved to lose the House and even suggesting that losing big might not be inappropriate), heaped scorn on Tom Coburn, argued that the GOP leadership of the 109th Congress had been so awful they ought to be drummed out of future office, called the CGOP idiots, agreed with Sandy Levinson about the line of sucession (that one was physically painful), reminded everyone that I supported Employment Div. v. Smith (not something religious conservatives, in particular, are fond of), dissented on secession, offered a limited defense of Amanda Marcotte, confessed to a certain amount of buyer's remorse about Alito, raised questions about Fred and Tommy Thompson (and in many quarters my various posts defending Guiliani and McCain aren't exactly considered "in line" with the GOP), joined the lynch mob out for Gonzales, criticized Bush's signing of BCRA, praised new Rep. Brad Ellsworth (D-Ind.), criticized Jim Dobson (and in comments to the same, gotten into an argument with a theocrat over whether federal courts can enforce God's law, a position at least some in the GOP are frighteningly open to), taken a fairly civil libertarian approach to the war on terror, defended the Libby verdict, taken a somewhat position on Ledbetter, and praised Nancy Pelosi.
Then there was the Miers nomination, which was of course sui generis: the party was deeply split, and so while I would say I wrote in line with the Republican Party's interests, Hugh Hewitt was militating to have people who took the line I took expelled from the Republican party. Does my position on the District of Columbia fall into this category too, given that the GOP is split?
And worth remembering, even in the field of law, where I'm perhaps most conservative of all, two of my three lodestars - Ann Althouse and Hugo Black - are liberals.
Would you like to try again, Michael?
Fair enough, dude. Point to
Fair enough, dude. Point to you. And I'm a little sorry I caused you to waste your Friday night responding. I withdraw the accusation and add a salute.
Nice comeback indeed, Simon.
Although I am again compelled to declare your pathological contempt for Obama unnerving. Henceforth it shall be called Obama Derangement Syndrome. I mean, it's as if you're obsessed.
As for candidates inducing horror, I can name only a few that scare me to that level(Tancredo, Kucinich, crazy Ron Paul). I have obvious problems with the GOP contenders, and as for my own side, the ones I really think should win, I fear sadly may never get the nod.
"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."
John 16:33
7th Amendment
Oh - I thought of another one: I'd apply the 7th amendment against the states, quite possibly with the effect that I'd have to find that many small claims court regimes violate it.
Well, Michael, you did ask.
Well, Michael, you did ask.
Boy takes stuff seriously
Boy takes stuff seriously doesn't he?