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Says pro-choice conservative feminist Tammy Bruce:
Clinton voters, in particular, have received a political wake-up call they never expected. Having watched their candidate and their principles betrayed by the very people who are supposed to be the flame-holders for equal rights and fairness, they now look across the aisle and see a woman who represents everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for. Women can have a family and a career. We can be whatever we choose, on our own terms. For some, that might mean shooting a moose. For others, perhaps it's about shooting a movie or shooting for a career as a teacher. However diverse our passions, we will vote for a system that allows us to make the choices that best suit us. It's that simple.
That ignores the abortion issue, but it's just not clear that abortion is an overriding issue for all Clinton supporters. To be sure, for many if not most, it is; I don't think anyone expected many if not most Clinton voters to cross lines, however, and that isn't athwart the hope that some will.
Added: About 18%, CBS suggests.
a little over the top.
Chris
let me count the ways
Shall we pass the time counting the number of different ways that women will be told to vote McCain-Palin because Sarah Palin is a woman?
In the interests of fairness, maybe the GOP would be willing to hand over all previously composed "Don't Vote for Hillary just because she's a woman" editorials they longer have any use for.
Probably not. However, it sure is ac urious development that the GOP is suddenly eager to embrace gender identity politics.
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
I'm not sure that the GOP
I'm not sure that the GOP has said anything like that yet. I think its still curious that people haven't given up on the idea that there was no other positive reason to add Palin to the campaign except for her being a woman.
I've always held that if we ever elected a woman president or vice president, it would be a conservative woman; only conservative women are elected: like Margaret Thatcher, like (relatively) Angela Merkel. The reason is because liberal women are seen too much as being stuck in the women's rights activist role, and we don't want a women's rights activist for president. We'd just want someone who could do the job, who happens to be a woman. The same thing for any potential black president. We wouldn't what a black civil rights activist for president. We'd want someone who happens to be black.
Granted people are looking at Palin's experience and suggesting that there's nothing else there besides her being a woman. But she's someone conservatives really, really like; and she also gave McCain the ability to make the campaign about what he wanted it to be about--refocusing on his role in the Senate as a 'maverick'.
And I think the other possible choices---Romney or Pawlenty--for instance--would have been disasters as VP picks.
How 'bout we count the ways
Shall we pass the time counting the number of different ways that women will be told to vote McCain-Palin because Sarah Palin is a woman?
How 'bout we count the ways that we've already been told BY THE LEFT that because Sarah Palin is a woman and a mother, we should despise her for running at all, and not staying home and baking cookies and having teas?
Frankly, I've already had endless fun watching some of the most "progressive" of my friends and acquaintances pompously floating the line that Mommy should be at home with the kids...and then watching their faces turn either bright red or utterly pale white as I simply stared at them (and sometimes both in succession) as they realized they'd not just insulted working women everywhere but also their husbands who acted as caregivers. Some equality, that.
What, you thought that line was just demeaning to women? Heh. Tell it to Todd Palin. To his face. If you have the cojones. Can we now bag on Zerox Joe for being a bad parent for not quitting the Senate to raise his sons when his wife and baby died? (I know I sure won't.)
However, it sure is ac urious development that the GOP is suddenly eager to embrace gender identity politics
Or come say it to MY face. Make sure both your dental and medical are fully paid up first--I've been the primary caregiver for my now-teenage kids since they were babies, while still earning half or more of the family income. If you're lucky I won't turn you over to Mrs. Tully for Round Two. That you are caught up in stereotypes does not mean WE are.
As William Kristol put it: By the end of the week, after Palin's tour de force in St. Paul, the liberal media were so befuddled that they were reduced to complaining that conservatives aren't being narrow-minded enough.
Heh.
Hey Tully, As someone not on
Hey Tully,
As someone not on the left, and not necessarily on the right either, I think it usually makes sense that the mother stays home with a newborn. It just makes some sort of sense to me. But if someone has a calling in life and a great opportunity to do something, its not for me to say they can't work it out, if they are working it out. Apparently Todd Palin is taking care of the child. It would have made a little more sense for her not to get pregnant in the first place, but then again, that's something I have no business in.
See above comment, expanded
See above comment, expanded version. Respectfully, bullsh*t. The only thing a dad can't do just as well for a baby is breastfeed it.
Good dads can do anything,
Good dads can do anything, yea. Its just usually the mother is more in the right frame of mind to nurse a baby, a baby is more likely to get the right vibes from a mother, and the mother more likely to have an easier time with the job. Like I said, I don't believe we should be making decisions for families, and I think its perfectly OK if they can work something out, and the dad might turn out to be perfectly capable. But where the conventional thing in society is for the mother to take the job.. I think there's a reason behind that.
Tully, I also don't think its untrue that women have greater hurdles taking on certain roles that men normally do, so theres a natural inclination for different genders taking different jobs. I don't think traditional gender roles are 100% arbitrary. However, I thinks its crucial that we have an open society and allow anyone to do what they have the potential to do, and encourage them to do what they want and have a chance to take on the responsibilities they want.
And you're completely right when you criticize people who think women can do anything, but men can't do anything.
What an incredibly sexist remark.
Its just usually the mother is more in the right frame of mind to nurse a baby, a baby is more likely to get the right vibes from a mother, and the mother more likely to have an easier time with the job.
What an incredibly sexist remark. You know this how? Even, assuming solely for the sake of discussion and taking your first remark NOT to mean "physically able to breastfeed," that such is "usually" the case, on what evidence and authority do you care to assign that reading to any particular family situation? Are you further alleging that babies get the WRONG vibes from their fathers? That fathers are unfit to be primary caregivers because mothers are "more likely to have an easier time with the job"?
"...and the dad MIGHT turn out to be perfectly capable..." Implying that most are not suited and not capable, that it's a risky crap shoot to trust a man, ANY man, with caregiving duties. Thank you! As a man and a father, I take that personally both ways as a direct insult. Pistols at dawn, suh! ;-)
Point being, in a Sarah Palin (or a Hillary Clinton) we have direct evidence that true gender equality in modern society is quite attainable, that save for a few irreducibles, gender roles are now more a matter of choice than of biology. Now the "progressives" who have spent endless time pushing that "gender eqaulity" meme are suddenly shocked--shocked!--that someone who has attained it isn't one of them.
I think it's ****ing hilarious. And the harder they push that exclusive-club line, the more voters in the middle they will lose from the innate and obvious hypocrisy of it. Especially working-class voters with children. The "progressive" left has constructed a straw-man stereotype not just of conservatives but of anyone who is not one of them, and are now incensed that anyone who is not one of them could actually live up to any of the ideals they themselves have constructed. And yes, that shows not only incredible contempt for women in general, but also for men. Broken down to its basics, it shows mindless emotive contempt for anyone who is not one of them who accomplishes absolutely anything.
How dare the Palin family not live up to someone else's stereotypes! :-D
Tully I already told you I
Tully
I already told you I don't agree with assigning a reading to any particular family situation. I'm happy we're developing laws that have gender equity to them. A woman may be the best person for a leadership job, and a man may be the best nurse.
My point is just that I dont think having 50-50 participation of both genders in every occupation or task is a meaningful goal. And I don't think people should feel pressured to meeting that goal. People should make the right decisions in their lives, and women shouldn't feel they should have to compete with men in traditionally male roles, and vice versa.
LOL. I was drawing out the
LOL. I was drawing out the bad assumptions. Not bagging on you, but using your words for examples to show how the left is being so incredibly hypocritical. Thus the winkin' smiley.
But yes, I do find such assumptions personally insulting, and they ARE implicit in the generalities. If Palin were a single mom I'd be all over her for placing career and ambition above family. She's not, and the Mommy criticisms being leveled at her are far out of bounds.
Grrrrrrr.....
My dad has been my primary caregiver since I was three years old. (For those who are unaware, I'm a woman.) I think he did an excellent job, albeit in a very, very tough situation (raising two young daughters after a divorce).
Guess I must have gotten the "wrong vibe" from him, though, and I would be a better, more functional human if I had been nursed or raised by my mother, but life worked out for me anyway.
I'm glad that I had a very involved dad. He arranged his work schedule (as a salesman) so he could attend every single one of my sporting events (I think he missed exactly one of my track meets - states, sadly - which gives him about a 99% attendance record), my science team competitions, and mock trial competitions, in addition to coaching basketball and softball when I was a kid. Few other parents did that - even the ones who stayed at home. (Sure, he sometimes does the hands-off parenting thing, such as when I asked him if he would visit me in Virginia at law school, and his response was, "Sure. When's graduation?", but it all works out.)
Apparently, though, that's just not enough, because he wasn't a girl.
Apparently people want to
Apparently people want to pile on me because I'm talking generalities.
I think what I meant by 'vibe' is something that nobody here would disagree with, that a lot of men act differently around babies and don't have the same instincts. In that case their personalities are a barrier, not just their gender.
I think its silly that people take anything I said personally. Its just as important to have a discussion about generalities as it is about particular family situations, because people need to have the confidence to make the right decisions.
This would be about the
This would be about the point where we note nature/nurture question is being begged... :-)
To be clear, the generalities themselves are definitionally stereotypical, and what I'm deriding is stereotypical thinking being applied as rationalizations to particular situations--and I'm hardly innocent of that error myself. I kick my own (mental) ass all the time about it, which is one reason I'm so aware of it.
And the point I hope I'm making is that it is completely and throughly and laughably 100% hypocritical for the left to criticize Sarah Palin on these grounds, and that from the information available to me, the Palins seem to be doing just fine with their particular situation, which is totally in line with the left's own stated PC'ism.
Tully, Even when a man
Tully,
Even when a man decides to take care of a baby, I think its useful for him to know what a maternal role is so he can adjust his behavior to match that
For the record I think a lot of women today tend to end up having bad instincts and end up being very smothering to their kids.
But i think its good to have discussions about gender.
They may not have been
They may not have been *trying* to get pregnant. But if a child, er "fetus/embryo," shows up & you believe that it's a human being deserving of life, then you have a baby.
Yipes
If you're lucky I won't turn you over to Mrs. Tully for Round Two.
Yipes !!!
Rachel
I brew the beer I drink
Who is you and who is we above?
Who is you and who is we above?
I hope you don't think I'm averse to counting both the left's and the right's stereotypical arguments. If you're referring to me, I'm utterly baffled why you think that I'm caught up in stereotypes, simply because I notice other folks making stereotypical arguments.
What I am responding to in the comments above is Simon's joy in pointing out that someone who is supposed to be on the left's side is extolling Palin's virtue's as a representation of feminist ideals. It's a pro-feminist argument for Palin, and the implication is that you should vote for Palin because of this.
I like Palin. I've repeatedly defended her. That doesn't mean I have to abstain from noticing when she benefits from the same sorts of identity-based arguments usually used on behalf of the left's candidates. Does it?
In case I've been unclear, I've got little respect for sexist arguments about traditional roles. I've got a ton of respect for any man who takes on the role of at home dad. It's surely not your fault that some men hide behind "the woman somehow seems better suited" when what's really true is that the man just really doesn't want to do it, or knows he can't handle it.
My sense is that the men who don't want to admit that they just don't want to do it or can't handle it avoid this realization because to top it all off they want to de-value the caregiver role in comparison to their role.
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
I think something a lot of
I think something a lot of commentators are missing out on, is that a lot of Hillary voters were probably ready to vote for McCain anyway, despite McCain's pro-life stance on social issues; they simply respect McCain's political stances.
McCain adding a pro-life VP doesn't change that one bit. Its true that Palin's views are much farther to the right than McCains, but we're electing McCain, and also Obamas views are just as much out of sync with women as Palin's are. Women, as mothers dealing with their teenage daughters, also favor things like parental notification, which Obama opposes.
More Hillary voters will go over to the McCain/Palin ticket than some are saying, just because they like the ticket and what it stands for. Some people think that Hillary herself will secretly cast her ballot for McCain