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The end game...

Submitted by Pat on Fri, 05/16/2008 - 10:10am

Wins by a noseMost of the blogosphere seems to think that there are only 2 positions worth having for Sen. Hillary Clinton, President or Vice President. Her remaining in the race at this point is attributed variously to ego, self-delusion, or a desire to be the nominee for Vice President. All of these bloggers and commenters display a profound, and frankly embarassing, lack of knowledge about the less visible aspects of national party politics. Tully has already explained the real reasons why Clinton hasn't quit yet. Following the precept that fortune favors the bold, let me build on Tully's post and make a few predictions about how the end-game plays out.

Obama is almost certain to be the Presidential nominee, but that "almost" makes him a very weak nominee. He has a delegate lead of only 46.9% to 42.4%. Looking at the primary popular vote in the most favorable light, Obama leads by just 2.1% (49.3% to 47.2%). Looking at that vote in the least favorable light, Obama trails Clinton by 0.8%. In the most comprehensive tally (and estimate of the "popular vote" in caucus states), Obama leads Clinton by just 0.22%. He's lost to Clinton in most of the biggest states, as well as in many of the "swing" states. Many of his biggest victories have been in deeply Red states which he is very unlikely to carry in the general election.

If Clinton were to force a floor fight, the delegates (most notably the superdelegates) would have to make a series of very difficult votes, the outcomes of which could cause significant damage to the Democratic Party both in the upcoming general election and for a much longer term. First and foremost in this dilemma are Florida and Michigan. Without some sort of deal, they'll have to publicly vote to refuse to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, two states they really need to win in order to win the general election. Refusing to seat them would cause long-term damage to the relationships between the DNC and the Democrats in those states. Beyond that, a floor fight forces all of the superdelegates to either vote for Clinton (ignoring the "popular vote" winner) or to abandon her, disregarding everything she and Bill have done for them over the past 2 decades and alienating women and the more moderate faction of the party. The superdelegates, particularly the governors and members of Congress, very much don't want to have to cast those difficult votes.

Much of the intra-party tension we're seeing is the on-going echoes of the intra-party fights which led to Bill Clinton becoming President. He was the "new" Democrat, more moderate, not tied to the old ways of pure tax-and-spend, looking for a "third way." Hillary Clinton has largely continued this pattern, with carefully triangulated votes on major issues such as the war. She has her liberal street cred, but in the end she has campaigned as the more "moderate" Democrat. Sen. Obama, by contrast, is the candidate of the elite (the Kerry and Kossack wing of the party) and African-Americans. He has taken an absolutist position on the war, and his voting record (scant as it is) shows him to be solidly liberal in most of his positions. That wing of the party had several key losses 2 and 4 years ago. Kerry's nomination cost them the presidency, then they lost the fight against Lieberman, and the biggest group of Democrats elected when the party took back the House and Senate were the "Blue Dog" Democrats, from the moderate wing of the party. The moderate faction (currently led by Hillary) will be forced to concede that Obama will be the nominee, but they will want to ensure that the party machinery does not pass into the hands of the liberal wing of the party, who might be inclined to not support the moderates as much.

There are 7 key party leaders: Speaker of the House, Senate Majority Leader, DNC Chair, Democratic Governors Chair, Democratic Senate Campaign Commitee (DSCC) Chair, Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) Chair, and Democratic Legislative Campaign Commitee (DLCC) Chair. If Obama were to be elected President, then he and Speaker Pelosi would be the primary national faces of the party. The moderate faction of the party would have little national visibility. They need one of their own to be a major, visible player.

With all these factors in mind, here's my prediction.

After the last of the primary votes, Sen. Clinton will announce the "suspension" of her campaign (when she does that, it will be the first sign that the deals have been tentatively made). Shortly before the convention begins, she will announce that she is withdrawing and will support candidate Obama (that will be the sign that all the deals have been finalized). At the convention, Sen. Obama's people will make a very public motion to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, as is. This will pass with the unanimous support of the credentials committee. Speakers chosen by Sen. Clinton will have about 35% to 40% of the speaking time at the convention, and close to equal time during the prime-time hours. Many of those speakers will be women; expect to see a lot of Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein.

On the first night of the convention, President Bill Clinton will speak, just as he did 4 years ago. Deval Patrick will also have a prime-time speech on opening night. On the second night of the convention, Sen. Clinton herself will give the keynote address, setting a tone of "unity," while emphasizing several of her own issues. On the third night, Va. Governor Tim Kaine will speak as the nominee for Vice President. On the fourth night, Az. Governor Janet Napolitano will nominate Barak Obama to be the Democratic candidate for President of the United States.

After the election, regardless of outcome, Harry Reid will announce he is stepping down as Senate Majority Leader. In January, Hillary Clinton will be selected to replace him. Nancy Pelosi will remain speaker of the House. Chuck Schumer, a Clinton ally, will probably remain as chair of the DSCC for at least 2 more years. Howard Dean will also step down as DNC Chair and will be replaced by anybody but Bill Richardson (I jest, a bit... he will be replaced by someone close to Hillary Clinton or, if Obama wins the election, Deval Patrick). Hillary Clinton will have veto power over the selection of DCCC chair. Deval Patrick will become chair of the Democratic Governor's Association.

So there you have it. I'm on record. And man, be ready for it. If this turns out accurate, you can bet I'm going to crow about it! Feel free to make your own predictions in the comments.

Good call there Pat. It makes sense to me.

As a related note, one of the reasons that despite my prior vote, I'm still unsettled between Obama, Clinton, and McCain. I've always been a sold center-Left Dem, so Clinton's pragmatic centrism was good news IMHO. The thing is, while I recognize that a lot of Obama support comes from the left-wing of the Party, I don't think that Obama is so much the left-wing candidate, that modertes can't support him.

I do think Clinton has more established centrist credentials, based partly because she's been in the game longer, and I think your (and Tully's) analysis of her being the advocate of the moderates is sound.

Beyond that, a floor fight forces all of the superdelegates to either vote for Clinton (ignoring the "popular vote" winner) or to abandon her, disregarding everything she and Bill have done for them over the past 2 decades and alienating women and the more moderate faction of the party

Indeed. Many of those women are threatening to walk out, if thry feel their candidate gets screwed, in fact, many feel she already has been screwed.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Hence....

Indeed. Many of those women are threatening to walk out, if thry feel their candidate gets screwed, in fact, many feel she already has been screwed.

Hence Napolitano giving the nominating speech. I thought about Napolitano as the VP candidate, but I tihnk Obama's bigger weakness is among white men, so I went with Kaine.

Many of those women are

Many of those women are threatening to walk out, if thry feel their candidate gets screwed, in fact, many feel she already has been screwed.

Yes. Even a fair number of Republican women are not happy about how Hillary has been treated in the campaign. From the perspective of a conservative women, I would love to see the DNC alienate women -- maybe they will come join this side of the aisle -- but distressing nonetheless.

I disagree about Kaine. He's a Democrat in name only (are there DINOs as well as RINOs?) - pro-death penalty (reinstated it a mere two hours after the Baze decision was handed down), against PBA, and pro-gun. He has to be in order to win Virginia. As much talk as there is about how Virginia has Democrat governors and now Senators, how the state is going purple, etc., the fact is that we elect governors of the opposite party to those who won the White House (our elections take place the year after the Leap Year), and even the Democrats tack pretty far to the right in order to get elected. (It's sort of pathetic to watch, actually.)

That's precisely why I predict Kaine...

After the way he alienated the bitter, clinging rural voters, Obama NEEDS to reach out to the other side. Kaine endorsed Obama very early on. In fact, here's Kaine on YouTube on Feb. 9, 2008, claiming to be the first elected official outside of Illinois to endorse Obama, in February 2007.

By picking a moderate to conservative Democrat, Obama puts meat on the bones of his early campaign rhetoric about inclusiveness. And because Kaine endorsed him early on, it's not seen as any sort of power-sharing with the Clinton camp.

Good luck with Kaine

If Kaine becomes VP,there is some doubt that we Virginians will go blue. He and the VA congress just tried to hyper-tax us through this traffic violation law and traffic is still a beast (actually another word, but...). We won't neccessarily vote against O because of Kaine, but he is not liked like Mark Warner.

Rachel

I don't put bumperstickers on my car for the same reason I don't sell advertising space on my pants? James Lileks

No takers? Cowards!

Nobody else wants to go out on a long narrow limb themselves? Pansies, you're all pansies! (not that there's anything wrong with that)

C'mon. All of us who are wrong will be wrong together, so you won't be individually humiliated, and whoever's right will have MUCHO bragging rights!

I would beg to note that you

I would beg to note that you self-admittedly springboarded off of my existing predictions. So be careful where you point that thing, mister!

Now, you might want to say that I wasn't all that specific about which people for what roles as compared to predicting the general shape of events, but I would remind you that there is a difference between bravery and foolhardiness, and that the most common final words of the foolhardy are "Hey guys, watch this!" ;-)

I'm taking my time on more detailed predictions--this far out, I think that roulette offers better odds. But then I've already climbed a ways out on that limb.

Oh this is sooo booring Pat!

C'mon. I want to see Chicago '68 redux. Only this time it will be the party regulars and Hillary crowd rioting in the streets of Denver. I want to see angry older women shouting "The whole world's watching! The whole world's watching!" and coming down the street from the other direction I want to see bitter rural white men with Bibles in one hand and guns in the other demanding their voices be heard inside the convention hall. (Hmmm, and who would play Richard Daley? Hickenlooper is just such a mouthful).

And maybe we can get Howard Dean to scream again!!!!

Now wouldn't that be funner?

Chris

'68, huh?

Don't you *wish* it were the Dems likely to be '68. It's the GOP in that part of the political cycle this time. This time you're the ones with the weak candidates and nasty, unhappy antiwar and other separated coalitions, bwahaha!

I predict Bob Barr will bring Libertarians rioting in the street ;-).... You know, I was startled to hear him running for the Libertarian ticket. He's probably the eptest man to run on it. Especially since I can't seem to remember any kooky gold standard speeches, and ISTR he's also pretty close to my views on 9/11 - had to be responded to, but there was no excuse for giving up the civil liberties like we have.

Lotta likelihood to what Pat's saying, But he's prolly got Dean wrong - he and Obama are allies, because one reason Obama's winning is his adaptations to Dean's way of doing things, and Dean's reforms of the party.

[Barr and I think that] 9/11

[Barr and I think that] 9/11 [] had to be responded to, but there was no excuse for giving up the civil liberties like we have.

With all due respect, this claim is often made but rarely with any specificity. It's made at a high level of abstraction about who or what (Evil W. McBushco; the Patriot Act; the Supreme Court; etc.) has stripped whom of which liberties. It makes me think, actually, of that video that Rafique posted yesterday or Thursday (sorry, I've been away from a computer for most of the last few days, just catching up), where a clueless talking head was repeatedly pressed and could not identify what it was that Chamberlain did that constituted appeasement. It's easy to say "Obama's an appeaser" or "Bushco stripped our civil liberties" - those are very abstract statements. Let's hear some details: which civil liberties did we enjoy prior to changes the Bush administration made - primarily but not exclusively made in response to 9/11 - that are now dead or dormant?

civil rights

No civil liberty is DEAD, but plenty are sure weaker. The right to privacy has, of course, taken the biggest hit. Traveled lately? There's the NSLs and their repeated abuse. I certainly mind the Feds being able to look at my finances easily, without telling me and without evidence (it used to take enough small evidence to convince FISA or a judge). The NSA has ALL the records for certain carriers, and was listening in on phone conversations for a long time (I had a Pakistani buddy for awhile - did that mean they were listening in on me and my wife?), and since we've seen repeated nonmanagement of the NSLs, there's no reason to believe that's been managed any better. Are bored Feds looking at the Presidential candidates records, like they did at the State Dept? Habeas corpus is weaker - you can still be dragged in in war zones. You have no right to hold Blackwater responsible if they kill your wife while defending the American Embassy. The right to travel is alot weaker, between unaccountable no-fly lists and the addition of B&D and luggage pilfering to public air travel.

There you go - specifics.

Ah, for the good old days of

Ah, for the good old days of strong civil liberties when J. Edgar could do all those things with no oversight at all...when soldiers had to use warrants to capture prisoners on the battlefield...when FDR could listen in on all your conversations for the asking, and banks would open their books for every policeman who was curious....

Truly, get a grip.

To be fair, many of the things that went down during those days

were rightly rolled back, or brought under oversight, because of abuses. An example would be FISA, which was created to deal with the abuses of the Nixon era. I'm not saying all the rollbacks were wise, but I think the issue is that certain oversight provisions are being undermined, by claiming authority that the Executive Branch has never had.

Don't get me wrong, certain people make a habit of overreacting with regards to civil liberties, but I don't think it's at all hysterical to suggest that Bush has claimed unprecedented constitutional wartime Executive authority.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Except that it's not

Except that it's not unprecedented at all, Rafique--these are the same powers exercised by presidents in wartime forever, not "ones they never had" save as new technology is concerned. The Carter-era Congress DID overreact, and over-regulated in their quest to aggressively strip numerous powers from the executive branch. They had a willing accomplice in Jimmeh Carter. And one can certainly argue with solid justification that Congress' 1978 over-reach was more than just a pragmatical oversight one, that in many cases Congress actively usurped and encroached powers that are rightfully NOT their bailiwick, that constitutionally belong to the executive.

Until the next big war came along it didn't show so bad. Blaming FISA on Nixon, BTW, is bullshit, whatever the Church commission had to say. We're speaking of powers and authorities that were used (and yes, abused) running back to the advent of communications technology, when Lincoln had taps on the telegraph lines and the Secret Service copied and read ALL traffic, and even much earlier when foreign correspondance was routinely opened and read. Nixon didn't invent wire-tapping by a full century and he certainly wasn't even close to the first president to use the security apparatus to surveill domestically. Compared to FDR or Kennedy, he was downright restrained. It was SCOTUS rulings of the Warren/Burger 60's and 70's that changed the ground rules. And good ol' J. Edgar slowed down for no Congress, Court, or President. Nothing of the last decade even remotely approaches the everyday abuses of the Hoover FBI.

Point being that the current hysteria is promulgated in a complete lack of historical context. Even with the "abuses" some see, we are still enjoying greater protection of civil liberties in wartime than at any point in our nation's wartime history. Oh my, no-fly lists! Which compares to, say, being Japanese-American or even German- or Italian-American in WW2 how? (Talk about your travel restrictions...) Prior to the 1978 Congress, your bank could and would hand over your records to the police without ever notifying you on simple investigative request, no NSL needed. And so on.

By the way, it was that same utterly Democratic-controlled Carter-era 1978 Congress that originally created the gag-ruled administrative subpeona now known as a "National Security Letter," and Jimmeh Carter who signed it into law. Not the Bush admin. It was Congress that expanded the scope of them in the Patriot Act, not the Bush administration. Et effing cetera. Nor are admin subpeonas exactly a new thing, as anyone who has ever been audited can tell you.

That doesn't mean that the over-use of NSL's is a good thing, but geez, folks, get a grip. That the screwups are public knowledge at all and are being investigated shows that the system IS working. And the only unprecedented powers claimed are those pertaining to technologies that never before existed, where true precedent is categorically impossible, making "unprecedented" not much of a pejorative.

Ummm...

The Carter-era Congress DID overreact, and over-regulated in their quest to aggressively strip numerous powers from the executive branch. They had a willing accomplice in Jimmeh Carter. And one can certainly argue with solid justification that Congress' 1978 over-reach was more than just a pragmatical oversight one, that in many cases Congress actively usurped and encroached powers that are rightfully NOT their bailiwick, that constitutionally belong to the executive.

I'm going to assume that it's your view that the Executive has the authority to override laws enacted by Congress in wartime, and that any attempt to limit wartime power by Congress is an encroachment of the Executive. I'm just going to have to disagree.

I mean, I'm no lawyer, but doesn't Article I give the Congress explicit power to set rules for land and capture, as well as the conduct of the Armes Forces? Help me out if I'm wrong, but as I see it, the laws restricting wiretapping powers are jut as valid as laws prohibiting torture.

Now as to what happened before, you're certainly right that a lot of things happened in the past that we seem to forget about today. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, but the SCOTUS said he shouldn't have. FDR interned Japanese Americans. Hoover, JFK, Nixon, and others all did things. There were auses, as a response, the Congress acted. It's not that the Executive always had unlimited power, it's just that the Congress had never stepped in the limit them, according to their power to make law.

I'm running long here, but the point I'm making is that Bush has asserted the right to override certain laws in wartime, based on an interpretation of Executive power. That interpretation is unprecedented (or at the very least wrongheaded), and if one thinks he's right, then you're basically saying he can do whatever he wants in wartime. Inter arma enim silent leges.

BTW, the Patriot Act doesn't really bother me. I've always said, with regards to the NSA warrantless wiretaping controversy, that it wasn't the spying that bothered me, as much as the arguments that justified it.

ADDED: Yeah, how did we get on this topic, anyway?

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Rafique, I wouldn't make that claim

I'm going to assume that it's your view that the Executive has the authority to override laws enacted by Congress in wartime, and that any attempt to limit wartime power by Congress is an encroachment of the Executive

Rafique, I wouldn't make that claim, and that's a very bad assumption, taken as a whole. Taken as written you're saying the opposite, that the executive has NO authority that can NOT be usurped by Congress. I would say that Congress has a very real habit of trying to override the legitimate powers of both executive and judiciary in order to expand its own power. (I know, like neither of those branches ever snipe the edges...) Congress habitually over-reaches its authority. Not even Jimmeh Carter agreed that the entirety of the War Powers Act was constitutional as concerned separation of powers, for example. Not while he was in office, anyway. Whatever happened to the Tenure in Office Act? Oh yeah. Nope, Congress isn't always right.

What I am saying is that the "interpretations" are not in the least "unprecedented" as claimed, save in the sole area of previously unavailable technological applications, which are categorically "unprecedented" by definition, being new. This has led us into such absurdities as military commanders engaged in combat in the field on foreign soil having to ask domestic courts for wiretap warrants to surveill the enemy in the field on foreign soil. What I'm saying is that hyperbolic pronouncements of the imminent police state are just that, hyperbolic. That's not to say there are no valid concerns, but that when examined in historical context, these claims are just plain silly as to the scope and scale of effect claimed for them.

I actually remember the 60's and 70's and not from textbooks, and I've spent time in other nations where "civil rights" was a joke phrase. I'm tremendously unimpressed by the current hyperbole.

I certainly wasn't trying to make that argument...

Taken as written you're saying the opposite, that the executive has NO authority that can NOT be usurped by Congress

No, I think the Executive have clear powers, just as the Congress does, and there are powers that Congress cannot override. There are also legislative powers that the EXecutive cannot override. For instance, when COngress tried to micromanage the war in Iraq with those sloppy war funding bills, I think they may have been encroaching on the Executive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless operations during a war violate U.S law, once the war has been authorized, the Congress cannot intefere with the decisions of the Executive. In other words, Congress can't tell the President not to invade Fallujah.

Let me say once again that your overall point about the hyperbole in this debate is correct, as there is hyperbole on both sides.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Oh my yes

there is hyperbole on both sides.

Oh my yes. I was speaking to the specifics of particular claims. But there's no shortage of overblown claims from any corner.

lotta straw

A lotta straw there, and you should know it, Tully. The existence of previous injustices hardly excuses today's. Nor is WWII (or the Civil War comparison that others offer) an appropriate comparison - WW2 really was an existential threat which justied most of those reductions in liberties (albeit not the imprisonment of enemy minorities), because if we'd lost, it would've been hell here and all over the Earth.

The better comparison is the recent part of the Cold War, when decidedly more liberties were allowed. At that, today's threat is decidedly smaller than large-scale nuclear annihilation.

See above, Jon. BS, higher

See above, Jon. BS, higher and deeper. That's the "But this war is different!" line. NO, IT'S NOT. Constitutional powers and authorities are not dependent on your private subjective assessment of the situation, they are inherent in the office. Just because you don't like how they're used does not make them invalid, and they existed and were used before you or I were born. Nor were MOST of the uses of those powers in the past or present categorical abuses as alleged, simply uses of legitimate authorities that were sometimes abused. Just as NSL letters can conceivably be abused--but to show abuse you have to actually show abuse, not that the authority was exercised and poorly tracked. (Not to even mention the conflation of inherent bureaucratic haphazard ineptness with super-genius malevolent intent.) And "injustices" is a begging word, subjective and not quantified save by those wanting to wave that bloody shirt, and the usage you employ is just dismissive rhetoric that does not address any facts, just waves that shirt some more.

The fact is that we enjoy greater civil liberties today than Americans have at almost any time in the past. Despite the Patriot Act, FISA, etc. Any abuses are being given GREATER attention by Congress and the courts and even the executive itself than they have in the past.

But hey, the sky is falling, we gotta get hysterical, and it's all Bush's fault...same old PDS. We'll see it in a different form in the next admin too, just as we saw it in the Clinton years.

All of which in this thread is a massive divergence from predictions for the shape of the Dem Convention in Denver.

more rights grumbling

The Inspector General's report showing significant NSL abuse. Enjoy!

So, since you keep giving it as an excuse, HOW DO past misdeeds excuse today's? That's quite a reach of ethics. So, having a slave today's fine because lots of worse slavery happened in the past?

That's the "But this war is different!" line.

Well, just because it, er, happens to be true? It's kind of funny, since you then go and snark later about "complete lack of historical context." Make up your mind! So, you're saying every war is just completely the same? Mexican-American War, Panama, all the same? That's quite some statement. Aren't you saying we should've had a no-fly list for Panama?

Constitutional powers and authorities are not dependent on your private subjective assessment of the situation, they are inherent in the office. Just because you don't like how they're used does not make them invalid, and they existed and were used before you or I were born.

Nope! But they do just happen to work for me and the American People. The President and the Congress are required to account for their actions or face defeat in elections (sound familiar? like '06, and likely '08, given how Bush' polling?).

Howard Dean sent me an email telling me your CD opener and t-shirt are in the mail. He's glad for your support via your public defense of Bush II's unaccountability doctrine.

LOL. Nice try, Jon. You made

LOL. Nice try, Jon. You made the claim that your civil liberties were disappearing. Now that spcific example has shown that to be a hollow claim in any kind of historical historical perspective, you want to divert to CPD™. No sale. You're still just waving the bloody shirt, and rationalizing that as justified by more waving of the bloody shirt...round and round we go. You should know better.

Diverting further to BDS doesn't impress either. Last I looked, Bush is a lame duck. Unless you buy into some of the other left-wing canards floated over the last year. I'm pretty sure you don't.

um

Now that spcific example has shown that to be a hollow claim in any kind of historical historical perspective,

I think you meant, are too lazy to be bothered giving any excuses you'd accept from your teen. Unless, when your kid broke things, you told him it was OK because there'd been so much destruction when the Vandals took Rome (really - please think about it a bit). Or to answer my questions from the last post.

Pat brought up Mr. Bush; I guess he must have BDS. Though, I still hafta go through nonconsensual DS every time I fly for awhile, so it's still relevant. And, since Mr. McCain will have similar staff and seems to back a similar hot war set of ideas, I hafta be dubious how much will change other than torture with him in charge until he says something. Of course, that alone would be a huge improvement. If he comes out in favor of wider restoration, I'll seriously reconsider voting for him.

Try again, jon--which civil

Try again, jon--which civil liberties do you think are disappearing, and why? Reference them IN LAW and in CONTEXT, not your nebulous perception of what you think they are. And why would I waste time on questions that are not relevant to the claims at hand? That's diversion, you've used it in copious quantity above, and it's a hallmark of ranting. You've been offering diversionary arguments I wouldn't accept from my teens. I don't accept them from adults either.

You've already affirmed that most of your claim was based on your fuzzy SUBjective assessment, which means those areas are already pointless to discuss with you as far as any OBjective proofs go--they're matters of faith, and there's no point in arguing matters of faith. Great Ghu, you included luggage pilfering as some sort of violation of civil rights promulgated by the government! That's just plain silly. My luggage was being pilfered long before 9/11 and W. I even have copies of the insurance checks on file to prove it--going back to the end of the Carter admin. It's one of the reasons I prefer to drive, given a choice.

Though, I still hafta go through nonconsensual DS every time I fly for awhile, so it's still relevant.

The obvious: In my entire lifetime, part of the fine print of a commercial carrier ticket contract to get on a commercial aircraft as a passenger has ALWAYS included a consent agreement on my part to be searched in both person and luggage for contraband. ALWAYS. "Nonconsensual" my gently disposed equine hybrid. Don't like the terms? Don't make the contract. You have no "civil liberty" to hop on a commercial carrier with zero inspection, and have never had one in your lifetime. You're complaining that the carrier is enforcing the contract more strictly than previous, but no "civil liberty" is involved. News flash: this will continue under the next administration, regardless of party. With any luck improved technology will make it less obtrusive, but it'll still be there.

The point is that your complaints mostly consists of CPD™. The point of noting historical context is to show it's not been very different under any recent administration, save where it's been much worse.

When pilferage is done by

When pilferage is done by gummint agents on a way higher scale (because now locks are hard to use, and much more positive honesty is needed in TSA agents because they search lots of bags) due to security setups, and it makes certain kinds of business travel far harder and more expensive because they have to buy extra seats to personally shepherd all valuable items, well.... At the very least, it's something that needs explanation, which you and Mr Bush aren't providing.

If Bush II's measures really are important, why's it so hard for you and Mr Bush, to explain WHY instead of coming up with spin like pretending it's a courtrooom and not a blog and that my (in-context) explanations, are unworthy to be heard? I'd've thought it was fairly obvious from my comment that those liberties were present in the US on 9/10/01. TWhe answer would seem to me to be, then, that there IS no justification.

Do you think that the American people are a bunch of cowards, who can't face an airplane without security theater, and can't be told that because we're all sheep? The actual record on 9/11 shows rather differently, doesn't it? A pack, not a herd, as Instaman likes to say.

More digression. Please

More digression. Please restrain yourself to what I say, and not lump me in with your personal fixations, or assign thoughts and positions to me that I have not stated.

When you claim civil liberties have been restricted, you step into one of two areas, only one of which is rationally examinable rather than subjective rant-fodder. That's the legal area you complain about. Arguing the other is no more fruitful than arguing theology, which is why I call such things poli-theology. Yes, things changed on 9/11, and many of the changes are personally inconvenient and even infuriating. And some seem stupid and/or excessive. Some few can be viewed as legal tightenings of existing "civil liberties" as found in law. If you want to hit those, go right ahead, but be prepared to discuss the legal aspects and history. I'm sure there's an open thread around here somewhere. If you want to rant, you've already got a blog. Frankly, I'm bored with the ranting and have no intention of rehashing the last several years worth.

You spoke earlier of questions from and explanations to teenagers. I look forward to your cute little nipper hitting the "Why?" stage. ;-)

I'm mostly accusing Bush of

I'm mostly accusing Bush of bad ethics more than breaking the law.

But I'm happy to let this rest. Yeah, I shoulda spawned a separate thread - if nothing else, it would've gotten out of this annoying 2-word-wide mode....

I look forward to your cute little nipper hitting the "Why?" stage

Oh, oh! ;-) Right now, I'm afraid I'll be like Calvin & Hobbes' Dad, and give him way too much unlearning to do later in life....

Alright, I'll try

The Denver convention won't be like 68 but man will it come close. Obama's constant mistakes - and especially the media's constant forgiving of them - will turn Obama from the messiah into a pampered clueless man in many peoples eyes. Clinton will look more and more like the underdog that has some understanding of reality, which will give her the incentive to go for the presidency.

She will not have the delegate vote, but she will have the popular vote, and she will push that by forcing the counts of Florida and Michigan. The superdelegates, afraid of what the black vote will do, will pull a 2000 - vote against the popular vote and go for Obama. This will leave the party bitter and women will go for McCain (unless he pushes his pro-life beliefs)

either way, no one will come into the presidency looking like the messiah unless they were high to begin with. Obama will piss off the women, who will think they are being oppressed once again, Hillary will piss off the Ewoks*** 'cause to them it would be proof they want to oppress the black men, and McCain will just piss off everybody 'cause he's no one's dream candidate (which just entice me to vote for him ;)

*** Ewoks is the new term I give for those who blindingly worship Obama (see the last - or the third - episode of Star Wars on the planet Endor. You'll get it)

Rachel

I don't put bumperstickers on my car for the same reason I don't sell advertising space on my pants? James Lileks

I think c3 will have the bragging rights

Rachel

I don't put bumperstickers on my car for the same reason I don't sell advertising space on my pants? James Lileks

One adjustment

This will leave the party bitter and women will go for McCain (unless he pushes his pro-life beliefs)

1. McCain isn't pro-life; and
2. even if he were, there's not much reason to think it would hurt him with women voters any more than male voters.

gotta recheck my sources. Thanks

Rachel

I don't put bumperstickers on my car for the same reason I don't sell advertising space on my pants? James Lileks

Huh? I think you're going to have to expound on that first one,

Theo. Doesn't McCain have a 90-plus percent pro-life record?

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Well, I guess it depends on

Well, I guess it depends on what you consider "pro-life." The "personally pro-life, politically pro-choice" isn't very pro-life, really.

I'm pretty sure he said that he would not repeal Roe (presumably, would not vote for a Constitutional amendment overturning it if in the Senate); supports stem cell research; and voted against the ban on partial-birth abortion in 1999 (although he later voted for such a ban).

Given the Roe/Casey framework, a lot of people believe (erroneously) that most Americans believe in unrestricted abortion during the first three months of pregnancy, or the first six months, or with wide-ranging health exceptions. The data show, however, that McCain's position makes him pretty moderate (compared to the bulk of Americans, not to the Roe Justices) on the abortion issue. A "90% pro-life voting record" could be obtained by voting for mild restrictions on abortion... such as parental notification laws, which functionally do very little to limit abortions and certainly aren't "anti-abortion." We're also starting from a place of very little regulation - the extreme on the abortion issue, if you will - and it's not like there's many laws proposed that are pro-choice, because there's no real need to enact such laws.

I think it probably makes

I think it probably makes the most sense to call him a moderate pro lifer than not pro life at all - although that brings him into the ball park of an awfully large segment of the American population, who at this point want a more restrictive abortion regime, but not one as restrictive as you or I would like. Which somewhat cuts against the point Rachel was making, I'd think: if I'm right, and his position in abortion is somewhat more moderate, more in tune with what most Americans think, he should be sure to highlight (not push, but at least note) what he actually believes, if only as a counterbalance to the caricature that the dems and their surrogates will put out of him.

I was just basing that on the rating (I think) he received from

pro-life groups, but you make a good point, Theo. Being pro-life isn't just about abortion, and I honestly didn't know about the 1999 vote against the PBA ban. I guess that's why he has a 90 percent rating, as opposed to 100 percent. At the end of the day, though, I think his record is sold enough, that only the most ardent GOP pro-lifers will take issue.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Yes, Rafique, but to some

Yes, Rafique, but to some you're only "pro-life" if you agree with them 100% on everything every time. Just as to some you're only "pro-choice" if you agree with THEM 100% on everything every time. NARAL certainly considers McCain pro-life, calling him "very very extreme" and gives him a 0% pro-choice ranking. I think one can very safely say that McCain is NOT "pro-choice" as defined by the pro-choice pole itself.

Apparently he's just not extreme enough to please everyone. In addition, NRLC has been mad at him for a decade over McCain-Feingold.

Isn't that the eternal

Isn't that the eternal problem of being a moderate? You get hit over the head from both sides, and from the front and center too (because moderates don't internally agree with other moderates very often either.)

Help me understand that statement

while not a religious conservative, He seems to be fairly pro-life. What's your definition?
Chris

Good one, Rachel. A quick question though:

What do you call someone who doesn't blindly worship Obama, but sincerely respects what he's trying to do, and may yet vote for him?

McCain will just piss off everybody 'cause he's no one's dream candidate (which just entice me to vote for him ;)

Ditto. I've set numerous times that I could very possibly vote for McCain. I'm not saying that I will, and there are real reasons not to, but it really could happen.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Normal

What do you call someone who doesn't blindly worship Obama, but sincerely respects what he's trying to do, and may yet vote for him?

Normal.

Apart from you and my mother, no one who supports Obama has given a cogent answer or defense for him on certain issues- at least on the blogs I visit. Be it WSJ, politico, or a local news blog where Obama is criticized it's always followed by O's supporters claiming conspiracy or insulting the person bringing up the issue, followed by OBAMA 08, or YES WE CAN! The most recent example is the "sweetie" comment he gave in Michigan. People started to condemn the lady asking the questions, instead of noticing how he dodged the question of bringing jobs to Michigan. It's mounting evidence like that that led me to my theories.

But I'll admit, I could be wrong. Watch Denver be like a conference of librarians or something.

Rachel

I don't put bumperstickers on my car for the same reason I don't sell advertising space on my pants? James Lileks

He does have, and I suspect this is true of every candidate,

a dedicated set of core supporters that will suffer no critique of Obama, no matter how valid, and they are just as close minded on this as those who cannot see anything good in him.

As I've said, I respect him, and I really believe he may just be able to change things for the good. He has flaws, but..well, you get the idea.

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Wow....interesting Pat

Raf, I don't know how you stomach Obama's pivot to center. From NeoLiberal past New Democrat altogether directly to centrist...LOL. Complete with the flag pin and not a single AA standing behind him in SD. Did you hear the speech he gave? Flaws, is that what you call them....LOL

Now he can't fire Rice because all that will leave him with are Skeletor and Zbig. Watching Biden and Edwards kiss ass was quite funny. Biden has completely lost it.

See my comment about SNL. If you are confident with Rice and McPeak, have fun with that.

I guess you all are betting Larry Johnson's got nothin...

My prediction? Wright will be on Dancing with the Stars next season and Obama will be back in the Senate. Let's predict who will swear in Obama. I say Moss or Jackson. I'm surprised no one's predicting Daschle's come back and if everyone's picks are right, maybe Ford Jr. might consider running with McCain....

Ford Jr. with McCain? Unlikely, but let me tell you that I would

vote for that ticket in a heartbeat. I don't see how McCain smooths over the consevative base with Harold Ford. Even Lieberman would pose problems. I'd rather see Ford as Obama's Veep pick myself, but who knows?

"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

John 16:33

Hear ya Raf, but short of a

Hear ya Raf, but short of a Huck or Romney, I don't see what would keep this Liberal from splitting the ticket and preventing an Obama under fire running to Pelosi and company for cover. That is why the DNC wants Obama. He is controllable and Hillary ain't. Obama/Pelosi....wonderful. Republicans would be happy as they get ready for Reagan 2 in 2012. Frankly, I expect more crap coming forward on Obama and Hillary wll be quite happy to see him lose. She owes him zero.

As soon as Hillary "suspends" her campaign, I expect some nukes going off, but perhaps this is merely wishful thinking. Nothing, however, surprises my about Obama anymore. Had Hillary open fired after Iowa, Obama would be history by now.

Lesson learned? Maybe...

"pivot to center" Huh?

Does a flag pin qualify as a "pivot to the center"

His last victory speech began to border on the class warfare, John Edwards approach. Frankly, I think that approach will be just be too tempting. The question is whether people can listen after the "completing Bush's 3rd term" phrase rolls off the tongue.

Chris

PS And a big question for me: Will the electorate recognize the "recession's that's not" and then begin to get a bit more worked up about taxes.

Check!

After the last of the primary votes, Sen. Clinton will announce the "suspension" of her campaign (when she does that, it will be the first sign that the deals have been tentatively made).

Check! It's fun being right so far in advance, isn't it? :-D

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