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This story is a few days old, but Forbes has put out their list of the 25 most influential liberals in the U.S. media. Now, this list has become quite controversial, and frankly, I find the premise problematic, starting with their definition of a liberal. The Forbes article defines a liberal thusly:
Broadly, a "liberal' subscribes to some or all of the following: progressive income taxation; universal health care of some kind; opposition to the war in Iraq, and a certain queasiness about the war on terror; an instinctive preference for international diplomacy; the right to gay marriage; a woman's right to an abortion; environmentalism in some Kyoto Protocol-friendly form; and a rejection of the McCain-Palin ticket.
Well, I really don't need to explain what's wrong with that description, do I? Surely various self-identified liberals would meet some of the characteristics, but last I checked, liberalism, both the classical and modern variants, is rooted in deeper soil than that.
First off, I, and I'm not alone in this, support the war in Iraq, and have no queasiness about the war on terror. Unwavering support for the fight for civilization against barbarism, is hardly incompatible with liberalism, and frankly, I support the GWOT because I'm a liberal. If by queasiness, they mean disagreements with certain Bush policies, then I guess they're onto something, but I suspect it's not just liberals that are. Getting to the larger point, based on their clunky and limited definition of liberal, certain people are named, such as Paul Krugman, Glenn Greenwald, Kos, Christopher Hitchens, Oprah, and Andrew Sullivan.
The choice of Sullivan bothered me, because while the argument for Sullivan as a liberal is not a new one made by the Right, it's still based on the same flimsy reasoning. If you read the description, the comments on Althouse, and if you pay attention to the general feeling of a lot of righty types, the general argument is that Sully is a liberal because he supported Obama (admittedly to the point of hero worship), supports gay marriage, has sharply criticized Bush (on torture, etc), and opposed Sarah Palin. Now, one can have varying opinions on the rightness or wrongness of these choices, but none of these facts makes Sullivan a liberal. Consider his own retort, as he defends his conservative cred:
For the record, I support a flat tax and, as my liberal readers know, find progressive taxation unjust and counter-productive; I'm skeptical of universal healthcare on European lines and have long defended a free market in healthcare and pharmaceuticals; I have no queasiness in fighting a war against Jihadist terror - in fact I have long been one of the most passionate supporters of it.
He continues:
I am skeptical of cap-and-trade and Kyoto-style approaches to climate change and favor a much higher tax on gas, balanced by a cut in payroll tax, to help innovate new energy sources. Not many liberals, I wager to say, endorsed Ron Paul for president for the GOP in the primaries. Not many liberals, I dare to say, have written books on conservatism which rest on a reading of key conservative thinkers such as Burke and Oakeshott and Montaigne and Hobbes. And the conservatism I adhere to, as any reader can tell, has remained very constant for twenty years. There is very little shift in tone or argument from my first book, "Intimations Pursued," to my last, "The Conservative Soul." It spans twenty years.
I'm a liberal, so it's not really up to me to validate Sullivan's conservative bona fides, but he does have a point. Opposing torture doesn't make you a liberal. Voting for Obama doesn't make you a liberal. Obama's not a conservative, so it's kind of understandable for conservatives to be startled at a conservative vote for Obama, but a lot of self-avowed conservatives voted for Obama for a variety of reasons. Many Democrats voted for Bush.
Opposing Bush's policies doesn't neccessarily make you a liberal. Conservatives of all stripes have opposed Bush on many issues, including gay marriage, and the Bush tax cuts. Sullivan supported those tax cuts, BTW. Turning against the war in Iraq doesn't make you a liberal, just as supporting the war doesn't make you a conservative.
Much has been made of Sullivan's attacks on Palin. My opinion of Palin has diminished quite a bit over the past few months, but I'll cede that he went too far a few times. However, opposing Sarah Palin doesn't make you a liberal, as high-profile conservatives have voiced opposition to her candidacy. I mean, David Frum hasn't lost his conservative cred, has he?
In fact, I'm not defending Andrew Sullivan-- I often find him worth reading, but his praise for Obama, and I say this as a proud Obama supporter--reached disquieting levels of hero worship. His obsession with Prop. 8 vexed me, as do his insane rants against Rick Warren. His use of the perjorative "Christianist," induces eye-rolling, my issues with the religious right notwithstanding. Considering the comments, many seem to think the he is a liberal, and not a conservative, simply because he's a jerk. Again, I'm not defending his faults, as I frankly think he has a tendency to display the instincts of an hysterical douchebag, which his endorsement of this vile anti-Hillary clip will attest, but being a douchebag doesn't make you a liberal. Or a conservative, for that matter.
So, what's the big deal, you ask? As the title attests, this is just the first part of my essay, but I just think words mean something, and governing principles mean something. Entry into the liberal camp ought to cost more than opposing Bush, or the Iraq war. Liberalism means more than that. Just sayin.'
More to come...
Ha...that's a great line
"Considering the comments, many seem to think the he is a liberal, and not a conservative, simply because he's a jerk."
One thing though, about the liberal tag for Sullivan. He's always been a fiscal conservative and at odds with the socons on a number of issues (putting him more in the libertarian tradition of American politics, or perhaps a European liberal conservative.)
But his complete embrace of Obama does put that in question, no? It's one thing for a conservative to have supported Obama with reservations, but Sully really jumped into the deep end of the pool. If I remember correctly, that Forbes article actually cited this as the reason that they were putting him on the lib list, and I think that makes sense.
Plus, the fact that he wrote so many anti-Bush, anti-GOP, and anti-Palin rants DID make him influential on the left. In that sense, being a jerk might not make you a liberal but it sure gets a lot of liberals to listen to you (the same phenomenon exists on the right, of course, too.)
Am I out in left field or what
(pardon the pun) but I would have thought Hitchens would have gotten more "questioning" (I wonder if Forbes believes that if your an agnostic/atheist you're likely a liberal).
And IMHO while left of center I haven't perceived Freidman as a "liberal".
A couple other comments/questions:
-Is the blogosphere that influential?
-Poor Keith Olberman!!
-It must be lonely for Kristol and Brooks at NYT
-Once and for all can Stewart admit that he's more than a guy who's show follows some puppets.
baiting, plain and simple
This sort of baiting is the kind of stuff intelligent folks ought not to rise up for. Pop analysis requires that the meaning of (what should be philosophical) terms like liberal must be defined by popular perception, based on the average positions of the majority of some group as perceived by others. Definition by example, in other words.
Abstract philosophical concepts are difficult enough for folks to grasp without being defined by examples of alleged club members instead of by principle.
Andrew Sullivan makes an illustrative case of the kind of bullsh!t that regularly gets perpetrated in pop politics. The only reason to call him a liberal is to frame an argument about what it really means to be a conservative. To make no allowances for the overlap between liberalism and libertarianism is just cluelessness.
I don't think Sully is a jerk. At least not in comparison to the uber-jerkiness of the vast majority of his detractors. He was in fact for some time a huge blog darling of conservatives. And he's managed to be fairly consistent in his views, IMO. Many of his former fans have been unable to stomach the conclusions Sully reached by applying his principles. This makes the tale of sully both instructive, and comical.
Yeah, I was being a bit tongue and cheek there, as I've really
nothing personal against the guy, it;s just that he can get on your nerves at times, and he has said some things that have left him fit for rebuke. As you say though, Brian, no more so than he current detractors, who were happy to have him on their side, until he started disagreeing with the party line. )The Left has this same malady, BTW, lest any man should boast.
I think you summed up my whole point in your first paragraph, Brian.
Oh I forgot to ask
Is that the technical term for his behavior?
More on pop chaos
Interview We Can Have Peace In The Holy Land.
Jimmy Carter on Jon Stewart (seated with an Israeli Flag and its Star of David placed behind him just over his right shoulder through the entire interview.)
Jon: “Is this your first foray into fiction?”
Jimmy: “Camp David removed the only military threat against Israel.”
Jimmy: “Israel would return the West Bank.”
Jimmy: “There hasn’t been a single violation in thirty years.”
Jimmy: “Nothing has changed in thirty years.”
Jimmy: I opened the door to China. (not Nixon).
Jimmy: “Recent polls show that 67% of Palestinians support a unified Palestine and peace with Israel.”
Jimmy: “Barak Obama” (the reason why we can break the thirty year impasse).
Jimmy: “Mitchell” (the guy who can get it done)
Jon: “How will things change?”
Jimmy: “Pressure on Israel, ….ah, influence would be a better word.”
Strange not one mention of Hamas, terrorism or the present arms flow back into Gaza.
Is this Liberal? Which Part? Is revision Liberal? I thought Orwell considered Fascists most likely to revise. I’m confused. Is this Liberal?
NYT blasted Patterson and judging by the media the Governor ruined his career rejecting the state-loved Caroline. A complete disregard that polls show 49% of New Yorkers backed Patterson and 13% didn’t. Only Fox asked the question. Was Fox being Liberal in seeking an accurate reporting of sentiment? Is this a Liberal thing to use media as message, a characteristic that I don’t see on the list above?
Oprah, Blago, Mitchell, Carter, Moore, Coles, Burris, Reid, Clinton, Dowd, Durbin, Pelosi, Murtha, the mess is as strange as the mixture on the Right.
Perhaps the labels conservative and liberal are a bit dysfunctional presently. You have to take those opinions above which “define” a Liberal and strip back it back to see what principles lead to such sentiment. For instance some Liberals opposed the Iraq invasion because they do not recognize the seriousness of those scenarios with Saddam in power now. They see it a messy expenditure, but would have cheered had it gone much smoother. Now it is easier to go with the group think. Others Liberals think we should pull out from the Middle East altogether and stop stealing oil. Peace comes when we stop abusing empire. There is a wide spectrum with each sentiment itself more or less influential. The new Liberal have a glee. In the sense Sully captured it full face with Obamamania, I can see why he has some present issue of ideological definition. Still, underlying views forming those simple test answers are beliefs much more complex. Sully identifies and projects with people (Bush Obama) rather than seeing the larger machine. His own reactive machinations reflect upon his own spinning credibility and less on the longer stride of Liberalism. Popular culture has its own media-influenced way of reworking the labels.
One of the worst things to happen in the Bush years...
was the "reemergence" of Jimmy Carter as some kind of expert in the Middle East and Foreign Affairs. He has been and always will be a walking fiasco in this department. I actually started liking him when he realized the only thing he could do was build houses for the poor. Now I am back to where I was in the late 70's and 80's of thinking of him as an incompetent boob.
Maybe Jimmy should just go back to Georgia and work on getting the peanut industry back on track after its current Georgia based fiasco. His is the type of foolish liberalism that is of prime danger to this country.
Ob Topic: The problem with categorization is the attempt to draw some kind of distinct black and white boundary where none exists. I think the labels are dysfunctional. They only seem to matter where someone lives by a pure ideology and even then, some ideology's can not be easily compartmentalized. I consider myself conservative; but I opposed the invasion of Iraq. However, once it was done, I support making sure we get it done and get it done right. Where does that put me?
Rafique, you list some things that don't make you a liberal...
But what are the things that do?
Al, I don't think I did. I supported the Iraq war, and the
larger GWOT, because I'm a liberal. I'm a liberal because I believe in individual freedom, equal justice under the law, civil rights, free speech, the judicious use of government power to solve problems, etc. I'm a fiscal moderate liberal, social moderate liberal, and a liberal hawk. In the tradition of FDR, JFK, MLK, Bill Clinton, and Joe Lieberman.
Surprise, surprise.....
Well, I don't need to be a conservative to know when I've been duped.
Nope, just a bit honest. I have to say several signs already indicate rocky waters are brewing. I'll give it some time.....
Sully is pretty much a
Sully is pretty much a Libertarian Party-style libertarian (to separate them from the libertarian conservatives that supported McCain, the war, etc). The thing is that the left adores LP-style libertarians, as they use them as leverage against conservatives in a vain attempt to say "Look, your own folks don't like [insert issue]."
Modern Liberalism has its roots in Progressism as well as classical liberalism. Quite the mix, eh?
How would you then define a conservative, Rafique?
I am curious to hear the term defined by such an atypical liberal.
Well, Al, that's a good question. Conservatism has taken on so
meanings lately, but I guess from this liberal's perspective, I've always seen conservatives as believing in less government involvement in the economic era, on the fiscla side, and more government involvement on the social/moral side. Judicial conservatives want less involvement of the Judiciary, and prefer a more conservative interpretation of the Constitution. Conservatives are generally traditionalists, although not necessarily.
Also, I don;t think that my views are that atypical as far as liberalism is concerned. I do think these labels have become so misunderstood (by both sides), that it's often easy to lose sight.
A test
A test
Do you dislike this guy?
Do you think this guy is very dangerous?
Do you question this as the energy cure?
Or is this more likely to sustain us?
Is this technical grail worth achieving before or after the proliferation of mobile missiles?
Do you accept the evidence and feel the outrage?
Does this make you angrier still?
Do you agree with this and this?
Do you feel an affinity to this guy? Feel like protecting our wild habitats, oceans and environments?
If you answered yes to all, then you could still be a Liberal.....
or a conservative?