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"We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism."

Submitted by Rafique on Thu, 06/04/2009 - 12:45pm

I've posted my initial thoughts on Obama's speech here, but I wanted to expound on one point in an otherwise good speech that continues to vex me the more I think it over. Obama was talking about religious tolerance, and finding common ground between the West, and the Muslim world (including the West), and he said this:

[I]t is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit - for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism.

I was instantly bothered by that line, but I couldn't quite pinpoint why, until I thought it over a bit more. I suspect Obama is trying to appeal to his Muslim audience, but the idea that any reasonable attempt to engage certain Islamic traditions (the hijab, etc) in the larger debate about religion in society equals an attack on Islam is problematic, to say the least. It looks almost like an attack on liberalism, and I think this point by David Frum, a conservative, helps explain:

These words are a slap at the government of France, which restricts the wearing of hijab in schools. Yet polls show that a large majority of French teachers support the ban. Possibly these teachers are all bigots. But possibly also they understand that hijab is frequently compelled upon girls – not only by their families – but by the youth gangs that patrol French suburban neighborhoods enforcing Islamic conformity on those who might wish to escape.

Islam is not a monolith, we are often told. And that is true! The Islamic world is also the home of Dr Younus Shaikh, a Pakistani scholar charged with blasphemy for stating that Islam did not exist before Muhammad. (Muslim orthodoxy holds that Islam was the original religion of mankind, followed by Adam in the Garden of Eden.)

The Islamic world is the home of the terrorized young gays of Iran. It is the home of Saudi women who want to drive. Did the president have anything to say to them?

No, no, and no. For all the speech’s reasonable tone, it persistently treats the more traditionalist elements within Islamic societies – and the Islamic diaspora – as the more authentic and important.

Now, I think Frum is being a bit harsh, but he has a point. Obama seems to be going out of his way to assure Muslims that in the West, Muslims have the freedom to wear the hijab. What about the freedom not to? What about the freedom not to subscribe to all the Islamic traditions? Keep in mind that many women are forced to wear the hijab, or forbidden to go to school. Again, I suspect he's just playing to his audience, but considering that people are still facing death for dissenting from state Islam, and that the fatwa remains unlifted against Salman Rushdie, his words there seem strangely one-sided.

Obama did a good job showing that America is not the enemy of Islam, but I think his critics might--I say might, be on to something when they point out that he needs to apply more moral and rhetorical force in pointing out that there are certain elements within the Muslim world, who have made themselves the enemy of America, the West, and Western values.

Just sayin.'

ADDED: The problem he has here is similar to a potential problem he may have with regards to Israel, the settlements, Iran, and Congressional Democrats (and if this remains an issue--a great deal of Americans).

HT: Totten, on Instapundit.

What about the freedom not

What about the freedom not to? What about the freedom not to subscribe to all the Islamic traditions? Keep in mind that many women are forced to wear the hijab, or forbidden to go to school.

What about the freedom not to wear plaid skirts no more than one inch above the knee at Catholic girls' schools?

I think that making girls wear headscarves to show culturally-mandated modesty (and, arguably, subservience) is silly and in some circumstances objectionable. But in what circumstances do we limit parents and schools in dictating how minors dress? In many countries girls are free from government-imposed restrictions on their clothing. But in what countries are they free from parental- and school-imposed restrictions?

That's a tough issue...

The problem particular with the hijab is that there are many Muslim women who don't want to wear it, but only wear it because they are threatened with violence (by the men in their lives, or by self-appointed enforcers of traditional values). Banning its wear, in that context, actually expands the freedom of those women. As a practical matter, the government cannot protect them from the risk of violence by self-appointed Taliban. Many sane women would chose to wear the hijab rather than undertake the risk of being stabbed or raped or otherwise harmed for not wearing it. By banning the wearing of the hijab, those women have a better chance of appearing in public as they choose, without risking injury from the backward zealots.

You make a mistake in distinguishing between "government" and "schools." Most of the schools in this country are, lamentably, operated by the government. Their actions are limited by the Constitution and other rules applicable to government institutions. While the Supreme Court has allowed some minor additional room to regulate behavior by government schools, that margin isn't much.

Private schools, I agree, can and should adopt whatever rules they like.

Caveat: This comment applies to the situation in the United States. In other nations, which have other problems and issues (like Turkey), the answers to some of these issues is different.

My problem...

with this:

[I]t is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit - for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear.

was touched upon by everyone else, but not explicitly. Obama misses the fundamental difference between having the freedom to do something, free from government control, and having the government (explicitly or via non-prosecution of violent gangs who enforce social rules) require one to do something.

The bothersome thing about that quote, Raf, is that it basically reads: "encouraging religious freedom by allowing a government to dictate religion to its citizens." It's the juxtaposition of "dictating" with "avoid impeding" that is a huge problem - and not just rhetorically. If that is Obama's definition of freedom, then we are in trouble.

For a bit of sarcasm for any hard-core pro-choice liberals: it's like saying that we should not impede Christianity by dictating that women not abort. Obviously messed up when you put it that way, but Obama's rhetoric is, as always, more slippery than that.

Yeah.

The bothersome thing about that quote, Raf, is that it basically reads: "encouraging religious freedom by allowing a government to dictate religion to its citizens." It's the juxtaposition of "dictating" with "avoid impeding" that is a huge problem - and not just rhetorically. If that is Obama's definition of freedom, then we are in trouble.

Yeah, you're right, Theo. It's so inexplicable too, considering Obama's liberalism. I honestly don't think that was what Obama was trying to say, but it comes off so wrong the way he said it.

could be bothered

It's pretty easy to be bothered by this on a close parsing. So I could be bothered about it if I wanted.

But I agree strongly with Rafique's suggestion that this was an attempt to appeal to the muslim audience. Slippery? Sure. An attempt to explicitly define a policy approach in one sentence? No effing way, not at all.

When all is said and done, I think Obama sensibly wants only to suggest to muslims that America is willing to be respectful of muslim mores and perspectives whenever possible. IMO, this is a clearly a sentence crafted to gloss over some base cultural conflicts. Sorry folks, that's a very LARGE part of what diplomacy is. Getting right to the heaet of the areas of greatest conflict? Not so much.

Hopefully conservatives won't lose their minds when I point out that we're talking about brands of multicultural philosophy. IMO, too many folks are far too eager to dismiss valid concerns in this domain in favor of pumping up hardline support for their own perspective. Everyone wants to skip forward to the part where they detail all of the many areas in which they are unwilling to compromise and explain why any such compromise would inevitably lead to the death of our ideals and, well, TEOTWAWKI.

If time passes fruitfully towards compromise and decent coexistence, we we will have to pass through a stages where brave muslims are willing to act and speak in iconclastic ways in regard to clothes, expressions of opinions, and so on. And then authority has to stomach some of that. Or run someone over with a tank.

Where are the good answers on the hijab issue? It's a freaking minefield. As Pat points out, if muslim women are legally and institutionally free to choose whether or not to wear hijabs in schools, then they are subject to the wrath of conservative islam for potentially choosing wrongly. If we dictate clothing choice, we establish a policy that is hostile to traditional values and to religion in general.Rock, I'd like you to meet hard place.

So, Obama's speechwriters came up with no better than the forked-tongue expression being parsed above. Frankly, I am good with that. We'll establish a basis for getting along with muslims one day at a time and one issue at a time, and one compromise at a time. By interacting with each other on a daily, issue-by-issue basis, muslims will come to learn the ropes of how a modern pluralistic democratic culture tries to muddle along. Fractiously. Contentiously. But with a low yet real baseline of civility. If the only way you can getalong with someone is by agreeing with them all the time, that's a problem.

In the end, I think the lesson almost has to be that tolerance is tolerance. It's not splendid, clear, unrelenting delight. If it was all delight there would be nothing for which simple tolerance was required. Tolerance is not a rainbows-ponies=ice cream sundaes kind of thing. Any sensible bran of multicultural philosophy makes this clear.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Brian.

I mean, my concern wasn't one of Obama's beliefs--I've no doubt he's on the right side of all these issues, but it was more of a rhetorical issue--I get what he was trying to do, but as you said, it does run the risk of coming off a bit clunky.

That is to a great extent my

That is to a great extent my take. We can see how policies go later on, but this was stroking and not a moment too soon as the results in Lebanon show. We sometimes do tough things in war and I don't know why Republicans don't understand that speeches are a form of warfare too. This was a speech to open minds not establish unquestionable fact. It was a tactic, not an end.

The United States is

The United States is basically a tolerant country - with it's enormous diversity, it has to be. And obsessing about what people wear - much less dictating what they may wear - is, as Obama suggests, not the American way (I wouldn't really think it was the French way either, but what do I know...) Yet, suggesting that the "dictating of what clothes a Muslim woman should wear" is primarily a Western problem is disingenuous, if not ridiculous, even though that kind of pandering clearly won much support for this speech (and I don't rule out that the end can justify such petty rhetorical dishonesty - I happen to think the speech moved the world forward). But changing the word order makes the sentence both truer and more important: "We cannot disguise hostility towards liberalism behind the pretence of any religion."

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