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"George W. Bush is missed by activists in Cairo and elsewhere who—despite possible misgivings about his policies..."

Submitted by Rafique on Thu, 05/20/2010 - 9:41am

"...benefited from his firm stance on democratic progress. During the time he kept up pressure on dictators, there were openings for a democratic opposition to flourish. The current Obama policy seems weak and inconsistent by contrast."

Ouch. Now, I think he's being a bit harsh, but it's hard to argue, and this is something I've wrestled with for a while (and was touched on here), that maybe President Obama might be more of a cold-eyed realist than we liberal hawks who supported him realized. I still hope I'm wrong, and there's reason to--but this sort of thing ought to be embarassing--on a purely personal legacy level.

HT: Jennifer Rubin, via Totten

Ok, so what I am seeing is a

Ok, so what I am seeing is a call to increase a particular type of foreign aid that was being cut? I am not in favor of restoring any cut at this point. I think we need to make cuts to everything, including entitlements and military, if we are going to have any kind of a chance to keep this economy from a total collapse. The U.S. can no longer economically afford the cost of trying to export democracy. It has been an economic money loser.

Is it in our political interest to have democracy? Sure. However, what we have been spending has been horribly ineffective. We can no longer afford to finance being the counter balance to China and the other countries that support destabilization because they profit from it in the long run as we spend all of our capital trying to stop it. China gets closer to winning the war everyday we have to keep borrowing from them. I have seen China as being the biggest security danger to this nation for many many years through their economic warfare. To me, the economy is now our largest national security threat.

The thing is, Jim--I think this is more of a foreign policy

issue here. I sometimes worry--and it's still in the worry stage at this point, that Obama and his Administration have prioritized stability more than democracy--not that he's not for it, rather, the idea of promoting it would take a secondary role, to stability in the region. Now a lot of people actually support such a view, and I sort of understand why. After eight years of Bush there are concerns about overextending ourselves and committing ourselves to too many fronts, but I think we ought to be ready and willing to apply moral and political force against threats to democracy worldwide. I don't think we should be too concerned about pissing off rogue regimes, and I( wonder if a better job needs to be done to let the democrats and dissidents know that we are on their side.

I'm no way giving any credence to the idea advanced by his critics that Obama has surrendered to our enemies, or that has abandoned freedom. But consider Iran--Obama rightly wants to keep nuclear waepons out of the hands of Ahmadinejad et. al, and he has made statements against the crackdowns by the regime against the protesters. All of this is linked together--the tyrants are after nuclear weapons as an instrument of their tyranny, and I think the President needs to acknowledge this more.

The Iranian people should never doubt where we stand. The Egyptians shouild never doubt where we stand.

I do admit to having a lean

I do admit to having a lean toward a realist policy of stability myself as part of addressing the challenges we face. It may also be a matter of trying play a delicate balancing game. I still do not feel that most of the Middle East has a sufficient middle class to support democratic governments without a severe danger of radical Islamic party candidates, like Hammas, getting power. The real problem is that many of these radical organizations do a far superior job of providing social services to the people in the countries than the government does. I think it is much better if Democracy is allowed to emerge slowly.

Now with Egypt, it is a sticky problem. If you push and get a higher level of democracy in Egypt, you are more likely to have a government that would likely be more aligned with Iran against Israel than what currently exists. On our other major problem in the region, I am beginning to wonder if it is possible to create a stable government in Afghanistan. It almost seems that part of the answer is to do away with the overwhelming idea of territorial preservation of state boundaries. Afghanistan may have to be chopped in half with one half sovereign and the other half as a new militarily occupied territory until it can be controlled. However, the nation-state as constituted in the current abstract boundaries is a difficult thing to deal with since Woodrow Wilson turned land and nation into an almost unlinkable function. With lacking the ability to re-map the Middle East, it would seem like working towards maintaining some kind of stability maybe the only workable method until we can get our own house in order.

True Jim. the Muslim

True Jim. the Muslim Brotherhood screams for more Democracy when what they want after taking power is to destroy Democracy. Such is the case for various Middle East groups. So we must be careful and understand the game.

Liberal Democracy is more than just voting.

And then Brennan wants to find moderate Hizb'Allah members....

And Blair is the one to resign?

Raf, I think Obama has been so out-played in the ME he is considering throwing in the towel and moving towards Israel (for the moment as polls slide downward).....
Ships sail to the Middle East on Friday in what appears to be a large show of force.

Yep, use that fleet while we still have it...

I guess he ought to schedule that visit to Israel straightaway

then.

The point about free elections not equaling democracy is apt. Free elections are a necessary but insufficient condition for democracy. You need institutions, and a democratic culture. Palestine had free elections, and they put fascists in power. The idea is the promote free elections, along with democratic, or at least quasi-democratic institutions. Not easy, but something worth aiming for.

For Pat

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/still-more-reader-contributions-for-everybody-draw-muhammad-day-print.html

For Pat from crazy Spencer's JihadWatch......

Sorry Raf, Democracy would mean a bit of Free Speech, yes?

Not sure what exactly your point is, Max.

If it's to apologize for the link to Spencer, than that's no big deal (he's as you describe, but still, no big deal.)

Yes Raf, I have had some

Yes Raf, I have had some battles with the "eternally at war with Islam" crowd and I hate linking him up anywhere. I've even stopped giving Debka a pass as Totten refers to them as the World Net Daily of foreign affairs...no matter their being right on occasion as they were a few days ago being among the first to report a large naval force leaving today from the US for the Gulf.

So there is incredibly mixed signals we're sending as Russia says today they can sell Iran S-300s if they want. IS this their response for Obama providing $200 million for Israel's Iron Dome?

Blair resigned today, but you and I can probably imagine a few more that should go. I wonder if Obama and China agreed to both pass resolutions on Iran and NK as long as they were both watered down so much as to mean little. It is hard to sort the facts here.

As for Mohammad, Norris is apologizing, but I understand the point of the cartoons and Facebook buckled. I didn't hear much protest from Muslims however when Iran held a Holocaust cartoon day....

Democracy and Free Speech update

Oh, besides Spencer I meant that Democracy entails free speech and the link to Spencer showed the cartoons. Some advocates in the ME want Democracy, but that doesn't entail the protection of minorities and their right to free speech. The most well known and recently fired editor of the Saudi progressive Press apologized for questioning the core of Islamic belief (which he did during a defense of woman's rights).

The reductionism that distills what America and others are - the concept of Democracy, doesn't work. We are much more than that. Obama didn't really touch on that in his Cairo speech. A society can Democratically commit suicide I guess...

P.S. Raf, I think you will get a kick out of this. It is different... want change you can believe in?

Also a thread from Totten that has some of the latest news items from the ME: here

Yeah, I've checked those links.

The Dershowitz ppece was good. He covers a lot of ground in that interview. It's also quite troubling to hear about Obama's replacement for DNI John Brennan's fool's errand. Finding moderates within Hezbollah? A fool's errand, I say again.

Yep, quite a list of strange behavior.....

Oh it keeps getting better Raf. The comment thread is loaded with the daily insanity. Kimmie tells nation to prepare for combat while a Syrian terror group in Gaza explodes a jack ass near the Gaza/Israeli border. Now who is dumber than an ass?

I did link up a site that describes Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy -what was really said. The GOP cannot be proud of Kissinger's rants. Actually the GOP up until Bush was not very sentimental about Israel. Reagan also prevented an Indian/Israeli strike on Pakistan's military reactor. Bush finally broke from the strategy Kissinger started shortly after the CIA helped Saddam to grab power. Bush jr actually started a different GOP trend. I'm glad to see some things change, but given the anti-Zionist feelings in the Democratic camp, I do not see a net gain for Israel. Perhaps a net loss......

We are seeing various clocks running down and as for Brennan, he should take Jahadi Airlines to Lebanon and visit the Hizb'Allal Jihadist tourist camp. One thing is certain: the signals from this administration are so mixed and confused, adversaries can make what ever they want of them. I am not sure this is what you thought Obama would do when we argued two years ago. There is a big difference between steady centrism and looking like you are caught in the headlights. Shall we call it yo-yo diplomacy?

And Tully and I exchanged several comments on this reality long denied by many Liberals.... Chavez and terrorism coming to your border soon

A lot of what Obama is doing now--the many good moves--

maintaining the fight in Afghanistan, maintaining a commitment to defeating terrorists--even if he sometimes won't call them terrorists, I've not been surprised about. I never expected a Carteresque dovish policy from Obama.

Two things have begun to bother me, however. I underestimated the realist influence in the Obama camp, and and think there has been tension between his liberal internationalism, and his realism. I also think his desire to not be like Bush, while understandable and wise in many respects, had allowed him to make some odd mistakes.

Yeah. Free speech includes the right to offend Muslims, even

if it's ugly speech. Those at Jihad Watch sue fit that bill. Still....

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