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Speaking for whom?

Submitted by Simon on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 12:09am

Appearing on Joy Behar's television program, author Eve Ensler avers that the "idea that [Sarah Palin] doesn't believe in global warming and she could actually run for vice president, and we have a country where that is possible, it seems insane." It's "insane" that one can actually run for Vice President if one holds an opinion with which 36% of Americans disagree?

With all due respect, some on the other side seem to cling for dear life to a pair of poisonously false ideas. Both are implicit in what Ensler and Behar said: they believe that their political opinions are not only correct but self-evidently correct, at both macro and micro levels, and to the exclusion of any intelligent dispute (cf. this from last week), and that in articulating these views, they are speaking for the vast majority (cf. this from last November). Neither is intellectually healthy, particularly when (as the story linked at top notes) it forces one to defend one's hill with factually risible claims, such as apparently positing climate change as a cause of earthquakes and tsunamis.

The bigger problem is that

The bigger problem is that people always frame the debate as if its global warming vs no global warming. Skeptics usually don't have a problem with either the idea that there's climate change, or the idea that humans have some type of impact. The difference of opinion centers on the degree of impact, how worried should we be about it, and what type of policies are appropriate to deal with it.

People on the alarmist side of that are all too happy to portray the debate that way, although I think many of them think thats what the debate actually is. That isn't helped by the fact that the skeptic side is always represented by people like Sean Hannity, who make broad statements like 'global warming is a fraud'.

Yeah, I think you're right, Brian, in that a lot of this debate

seems to be hijacked by partisans, who either assert climate change as real, but refuse to try and persuade honest skeptics, and the outright denuers, who reject all evidence, and cling to the most ridiculous and specious arguments to refute the existence of climate change (not to mention the outlandish conspiracies).

People on the alarmist side of that are all too happy to portray the debate that way, although I think many of them think thats what the debate actually is. That isn't helped by the fact that the skeptic side is always represented by people like Sean Hannity, who make broad statements like 'global warming is a fraud'.

As to liberal condescension, I think the article misses the mark, and makes some broad generalizations, but I will certainly agree that there are plenty of "liberals," who profess to be open-minded and nuanced, yet are as rigid and docttrinare as the conservatives they rebuke. I think it hurts our side more, when we profess to be open-minded, and yet are intolerant of ideas we may not understand, but at the end of the day, it's about equal. For every liberal convinced of the superiority of his or her ideas, I can find a conservative who feels the same way. That's one of the problems with our politics, and I say again, that both sides have this problem, although it differ in degrees depending on the issue.

It doesn't help that for

It doesn't help that for years what was considered the 'educated' opinion on subjects like that, as represented in academia, journalism, and entertainment, always was left-leaning. Conservative voices for a long time have fought just to be included in the discussion. We agree that the debate is dominated by partisans; but I think of the partisans on the right more as reactionaries. Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and other talk show hosts came about in an environment where there was no Fox News. They had to be loud and obnoxious just to get attention and get critics to respond to them.

Perhaps by "liberals" they

Perhaps by "liberals" they really mean the noxious cloud of self-described "progressives," a term that seems all-but interchangable with "netroots" from my perch?

The same self-described

The same self-described 'progressives' who have had a lot of influence over academia, journalism, and entertainment in the past. The public has in the past largely supported their views, but that support has been chipped away at for years as conservatives have made inroads.

Their confidence comes from that, and they think they have a monopoly on educated opinion. They regard all erosion of public support as the result of pernicious influences.

The thing is, I've never accepted that changeover, and frankly,

I think one of the reasons certain liberals seem to lose their way, is because they refuse to hold to their tradition. Liberlism has a specific tradition, and it's different from what used to be called Progressivism.

The changeover from liberal

The changeover from liberal to progressive you mean? Well, to be honest I support a lot of the point of view of the original Progressives as under Theodore Roosevelt. Modern progressive views have nothing to do with them. I think Beck and other conservative commentators are doing a good job of misrepresenting it though.

Nothing to do with them?

Nothing to do with them? Different policies, but animated by much the same worldview, it seems to me. Thus, for instance, you can regard the modern progressive's newfound and idiotic hostility to the filibuster and the old progressive's idiotic hostility to an indirectly elected Senate to the common root of a hubristic belief that the common man is on their side and should have more control over government. Likewise, centralization, technocracy, and anti-corporatism seem to be hallmarks of both.

Theodore Roosevelt was

Theodore Roosevelt was actually very much pro-business. He was a big supporter of tariffs, following the Whig tradition, but, like the Whigs, saw tariffs as a way to help business interests, not labor interests. The left at that time was the large force pushing for free trade, as you see later with Woodrow Wilson. Seeing Wilson and Roosevelt as part of the same 'Progressive movement' is not very helpful. The 'progressive' label had become popular so was co-opted by different people with different agendas. When I think of 'Progressive' I think of the original party under TR, and the 1912 platform.

You have to put what Roosevelt and the Bull Moose Progressives were trying to accomplish in historical context. Although Beck's image of him is as this extreme figure, the Democratic nominee he was running against, William Jennings Bryan, was the real extremist. Bryan, a Populist, not a Progressive, had a pretty radical agenda at the time: he called for things like prohibition on alcohol, nationalizing the railroads, a progressive income tax. Bryan wasn't interested in the limits of the Constitution and one part of his rhetoric was criticizing the fallibility of the Supreme Court.

Roosevelt objected to Bryan's politics, but was frustrated by what he called the 'reactionary' tendencies of conservatives in his own party. He argued that it was possible to make progress within the boundaries of the Constitution and while maintaining conservative values. Hence the term 'progressive'. His argument was generally for moderation and centrism.... Of course, this led Taft to call him a radical and Bryan to attack him for being pro-business.. John McCain wasn't so wrong when he compared himself to TR. Like TR, he tries to be a centrist, and is also attacked by both the left and right.

Most modern conservative critics of the Progressives don't disagree with most of the 1912 platform. They don't want anti-trust laws repealed, they don't want child labor laws or other labor laws repealed, they don't want lobbyist registration laws repealed, they don't want equal suffrage repealed. Most don't want to repeal the 17th amendment either, though I don't think that was a part of the 1912 platform. The biggest area of disagreement would be the call for a national health insurance program.

What modern progressives try do is use the original progressives as a platform to ground their own agenda. However, again, the original Progressives saw themselves as centrist and committed to the Constitution. Modern progressives see themselves as leftist (and have no patience for centrists), they're much more anti-business, dismiss conservative morality, and believe the Constitution has to be interpreted subjectively. In many ways, they're much closer to the William Jennings Bryan position. They just adopt the rhetoric of Progressives, which meant something different 100 years ago from what it does today.

Calling for more regulations on business in 1912 made sense. Most conservatives today support the same regulations. Calling for more regulations in 2010 doesn't make sense.

Sorry Simon, I'm having a

Sorry Simon, I'm having a problem with writing at the moment, so thats why my responses can get long winded and not address the point directly. What I'm saying is I disagree that modern progressives have the same animus... I feel the similarities between progressives then and now are superficial and mainly based on similarities in rhetoric; and that rhetoric made sense 100 years ago but not today.

I disagree with your

I disagree with your assessment of being long winded.

A very interesting read and I, for one, would like to see more terms defined. Progressive, liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc. These definitions have changed and altered so much over the last 100+ years, it is nice to see someone try to put definitions and personas/parties to them.

Not saying that a lot of what Tedy Roosevelt did wasn't good,

but it's not quite the same tradition.

Do you think 20th century

Do you think 20th century liberals really were faithful to liberalism in the classical sense of the term?

Or maybe I'm unsure what you mean by the changeover from liberal to progressive. How I see it is that liberals today adopted the term 'progressive' in order to appeal to moderates. The term 'liberal' became a liability, so they wanted to point to Roosevelt as a reference. In doing that, they also tried to put a different moral character behind their positions.

Yeah, I think a lot of liberals started calling themselves

progressives, because the term liberal had become unfashionable in the 1980's. Instead of defending liberalism, many on our side abandoned the label, and without fully understanding what progressivism meant, started calling themselves progressives. It just seems like a retreat, that's all.

Right, ok.. but I see

Right, ok.. but I see Roosevelt progressivism as more coherent with classical liberalism than is modern liberalism.

I think of Roosevelt's views as an evolution of the Hamiltonian position. Hamiltonianism at one point was carried on by the Whig Party, then Lincoln in the Republican Party, and Roosevelt saw himself as an heir to Lincoln. He simply didn't see the Constitution as being as rigid a document as did followers of Jefferson--as the Democratic Party of the time liked to think of itself. Roosevelt himself complained about the activism of courts.

Many of the views of modern liberals are influenced by the "New Left" of the 60s and 70s, which argued not about the flexibility in the Constitution, but subjectivity. Thus, you get activist decisions like Roe v Wade which claim root in 'liberal' traditions, in that they talk about personal liberties, but are actually a challenge to traditional views of the Constitution.

In my view, one of the reasons the label became unfashionable is because of that--liberalism was associated with judicial activism.

Well maybe liberals adopted the label without knowing what it

meant--that is, the name change was based less on a genuine understanding of the ideas involved, but rather out of fear of being perceived as being out-of-touch, because the liberal label had become so maligned.

As to the difference between modern and classical liberalism, that's another discussion, one whuch I think I'll have to devote a blog post to in the future.

The problem of course is ideology...

...these people actually believe that in order to "change the world" the only requirement is that enough people believe in "it" (i.e. whatever "change" they want to enact) hard & long enough. Reality, for them, is something that can be overcome by a sheer act of will.

After all, it brought Tinkerbell back from the dead.

"Reality, for them, is

"Reality, for them, is something that can be overcome by a sheer act of will." The triumph of the will, hmm?

yeah....

....fascism is one of its more virulent manifestations, but something of the same "spirit" can be seen in various ideological attempts to deal with a recalcitrant reality, be it revolutionary France or revolutionary Russia. (I'm channelling Camus' The Rebel here because, basically, I think he got it almost exactly right.)

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