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Reactions to Carhart, V

Submitted by Simon on Thu, 05/24/2007 - 8:18am

This isn't quite as big a story as the AP would have it, but it's still pleasing to read:

In a full-page ad in Wednesday's editions of The Gazette newspaper in Colorado Springs, the heads of four anti-abortion groups said [focus on the Family's James] Dobson wrongly characterized the court's April ruling [in Gonzales v. Carhart] as a victory for abortion foes.

The ad said the ruling will actually encourage medical professionals to find "less shocking" methods than late-term abortions, which abortion opponents call "partial-birth abortion."

"Dr. Dobson, you mislead Christians claiming this ruling will 'protect children.' The court granted no authority to save the life of even a single child," the ad said. It concluded by asking Dobson to "please repent."

. . .

The letter was signed by Brian Rohrbough, president of Colorado Right to Life; the Rev. Tom Euteneuer, president of Human Life International; Flip Benham, director of Operation Rescue/Operation Save America; Judie Brown, president of American Life League; and Bob Enyart, pastor of Denver Bible Church.

I've previously explained in some detail my view that Carhart is a vary narrow ruling, and I think Dobson is not only misguided but being unhelpful by landing this ruling on the deck of an aircraft carrier and declaring "mission accomplished."

In the comments: Pastor Enyart stops by and has some thoughts very much worth reading.

Related:
Reactions to Carhart I, II, III, IV, V, VI
My take on Carhart
What's missing from Carhart? Ah, yes...
BREAKING - Carhart comes down, ban upheld.

then maybe

Maybe if this ruling makes these folks so unhappy, they ought to ask SCOTUS to reconsider, and instead disallow any restrictions on particular types of late abortions.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Good old Calvinists. We know 'em well up here in New England. Unhappy when they lose. But even more unhappy after a win. They'd make great Red Sox fans. :-)

I don't think they're saying

I don't think they're saying they're unhappy with the ruling, Brian, they're saying that Dobson is misrepresenting what the decision actually says in a way that is harmful to the cause. That's how I read it, at least.

rallying the troops

Right. I thought the sarcasm would be manifest to you. My bad.

Here's the thing: sometimes the team needs a W so they can celebrate some progress and blow off some steam. How much worth is there in alerting the troops that the win was somehow a bad win?

Do each of the disparate leaders of the various groups that constitute the pro-life movement need to speak with one voice on precisely what Carhart means? Dobson probably thinks he knows what his followers wanted to hear, and he's probably right.

Pro-life ministries confronting Dobson, Nat'l RTL, etc.

Hello you stubborn people (or is that factual people),

After Dr. Dobson?s many years of dedicated ministry, it is not surprising that many pro-lifers disapprove of our confronting him. If we are wrong, we deserve their criticism. And if the three following points are correct, then we ask them to reconsider this life and death matter.

1. The Gonzales v. Carhart PBA ruling instructs abortionists that they can legally continue to perform partial-birth abortions simply by delivering a late-term baby halfway (to his bellybutton), and then killing him by various methods including by ripping off his legs. (See the ruling itself or our analysis.) This is evil.

2. Most pro-life ministries have done many years of fundraising on this PBA ban, leading donors and Christians by the millions to believe the ban had the authority to save the lives of late-term babies even though they knew from the beginning this law did not have the authority to save a single child's life.

3. We are warning the many pro-life leaders who have become moral relativists that it is wrong to defend judges and rulings that violate God's enduring command, Do not murder, as when such officials affirm the killing of the innocent, as happened when Dr. Dobson defended Samuel Alito's 2000 ruling that kept partial-birth abortion legal in New Jersey (see our letter), and now defends this PBA ruling which optimistically suggests that abortionists "may find? less shocking methods to abort the fetus."

Some people who have been dismayed by our confronting of Focus on the Family have been even more shocked, to the point of disbelief, of what this brutally wicked ruling actually says, because they are not being told the truth by ministries they have grown to love and trust. We urge you to read carefully our open letter (earnestly co-signed by respected pro-life organizations like American Life League, Operation Rescue, Colorado Right To Life and Human Life International), and you can read the ruling itself. Then after you have more information, for Dr. Dobson's sake, and for the sake of the Body of Christ, and for the unborn who we are fighting for, please reconsider joining us in exposing moral relativism among Christian leaders, and in condemning any law or ruling that provides authority to intentionally kill an innocent person, thus undermining personhood and God-given right to life, which is the only place of safety for the unborn.

Thanks,

Pastor Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church
Bob@KGOV.com

p.s.
Please see also the notes on this list of pro-life leaders who also condemn this wicked ruling:
* Ambassador Alan Keyes, RenewAmerica (see 28-second video at ColoradoRightToLife.org)
* Judie Brown, American Life League (one of the leading pro-life groups)
* Flip Benham, Operation Rescue / O.S.A. (best-known pro-life activist organization)
* Prof. Charles Rice, Notre Dame Law School (stalwart of the pro-life movement)
* John Archibold, founding board member, Nat'l Right to Life, Americans United for Life (resigned in protest from both)
* Jim Rudd, Covenant News
* John Lofton, The American View
* Eric Guttormson, TheologyOnline.com
* Dr. Patrick Johnston, ProLifePhysicians.org
* Chuck Baldwin, Crossroad Baptist Church
* Steve Curtis, LifeCommercials.com
* Ken & Jo Scott, ProLife Colorado
* Gino Geraci, Calvary Chapel South Denver (one of Denver's largest pro-life churches)
* Rev. Tom Euteneuer, Human Life International (90 offices in 75 countries)

Hi, Bob;

Hi, Bob;
Nice to have you visit. :) I can't speak for the others, but I'm both stubborn and factual. ;) With regard to the observation that "[a]fter Dr. Dobson?s many years of dedicated ministry, it is not surprising that many pro-lifers disapprove of our confronting him," and that "[i]f we are wrong, we deserve their criticism"; I think that it's virtually always valid to raise objections, publicly as needs must, even when it means criticizing an ally. When someone's heart is in the right place but they're perhaps not doing as much good as they think they are, and particularly on this of all issues, I think it's right and fair to speak up. So even if I thought you were wrong, in this case I'd defend your action.

With that said, I would sound one note of slight disagreement with your comment. I'm not sure that Carhart is an evil ruling, in that Carhart does not approve methods of abortion other than intact D&E so much as it says that Congress was within its power to enact this legisation. This is not ideal. It isn't a full-throated repudiation of Roe. But it is, at least, a map of the minefield that gives state legislators a fairly good indication of how far they can go in restraining abortion and keep Justice Kennedy's vote. Moreover, while the legislation does not go far enough, and might be characterized as permitting evil in that regard, had it gone further it would not have survived the Supreme Court's scrutiny.

So long as this ruling is regarded as a call to arms rather than a set of laurels to rest upon, I think it's to the good.

In some ways, it strikes me that the ruling is similar to Washington's crossing of the Delaware. In many ways, the victory at Trenton was a fairly limited victory, in the big picture. If Jim Dobson had said "wonderful! Washington has defeated the Hessians! Now we can all go home," then that would have been unhelpful. Nevertheless, while the victory was itself narrow, Trenton came after a long string of defeats and catastrophes, and Washington's victory was a massive shot in the arm to the cause of independence; it kept hope alive, made the country believe that it could beat overwhelming odds. In that regard, I think Brian raises a good point, and I concede that this is probably all Dobson's trying to do with regard to Carhart (albeit in an overstated manner).

The bottom line, I think, is that it is vital that the pro-life movement continue to vigorously engage at the Federal level to the extent that we aren't going anywhere without a fifth vote on the Supreme Court, and at the state level in supporting restrictions on abortion. However, I would strongly urge the view that less death is less death; a narrowly drawn law that attacks the problem incrementally but that survives judicial review and is subsequently built on by further restrictions is better than a broadly-drawn law that is struck down. Less death is still less death, and even if the goal is to eliminate abortion entirely, as a matter of engaging with the real world, reaching that goal in steps is the only way to advance, in my view.

Finally, I would a hypocrite (and I know Brian would spot it) if I didn't at least briefly disagree that a judge should not "violate God's enduring command." The obligation of a federal judge is to the Constituton and laws of the United States. If the people of the United States elect a Congress which passes a law in violation of God's enduring command, you are on solid ground if you urge that Congress should repeal it - but if that law is within the powers of the Congress of the United States as delineated by the Constitution of the United States, a federal judge has no more power to strike it down should it violating God's enduring command than she does should it for violating the latest liberal talking points. I can't subscribe to the Aquinian view that lex malla, lex nulla. Like Robert Bork, I don't deny that there is a natural law, or that positive law should resemble it, but like Bork, I do say at the determination of whether a given right is guaranteed by natural law, and that it therefore should be protected by positive law, is a question for legislatures, not courts. This isn't moral relativism, it's a question of what one believes the power of judges and courts should be under our system of government. And my view is that our constitution does not give the federal judiciary license to engraft their views - no matter how admirable or deplorable those views may be - onto the Constitution. On this point, I very respectfully dissent.

Splitter!I'll spare the

Splitter!

I'll skip the factual fisking.

Reaction to Carhart

Simon, you're a legal positivist: "Legal positivism is a conceptual theory emphasizing the conventional nature of law. Its foundation consists in the pedigree thesis and separability thesis, which jointly assert that law is manufactured according to certain social conventions. Also associated with positivism is the view, called the discretion thesis, that judges make new law in deciding cases not falling clearly under a legal rule. As an historical matter, positivism arose in opposition to classical natural law theory, according to which there are necessary moral constraints on the content of law. The word "positivism" was probably first used to draw attention to the idea that law is "positive" or "posited," as opposed to being "natural" in the sense of being derived from natural law or morality."

Acts 5:29: We ought to obey God rather than man.

Strictly speaking, I'm a

Strictly speaking, I'm a legal formalist, not a positivist. Positivism is rooted in Benthamite utilitarianism, notions - Russell Kirk really has an excellent summary of this in The Conservative Mind - that there is no natural or moral law, and that the length and breadth of law is defined by man. Thus, to the positivist, there is no restriction on what laws ought to be made other than the imagination of man. But as I explained in my comment above, paraphrasing Robert Bork, I don't believe that there's no natural law, I don't necessarily disagree that the laws of man ought to be made to resemble that natural law - but I do say that in our system of government, that decision is made by legislators, not courts; federal judges aren't empowered to enforce natural law (at least, not when it contravenes positive law). So I don't share the positivist's view that there is no natural limit on what laws can be made, but rather, have a view on who is authorized to make those laws, to decide whether the laws of man ought to be the laws of God.

Under our system of government, the law of the land is decided by the people, expressed in written instruments (the Constitution, laws and treaties of the United States), and the job of a judge in that system is to contrue those documents as they are written, not to review their wisdom de novo. And in this life, the people have the power to reject God's law, just as they have the power to reject salvation. They have the power to enact laws contrary to God's will; it may or may not be wise for then to do so (and in due course, they will be judged for those choices by a higher tribunal than any that can be convened under our Constitution), but that is our system of government. Our Constitution knows no analog to the prohibition of ? 1 Art. 2(A) of the Iraqi constitution that "[n]o law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established." The upshot of all this is that the judge enforces positive law, the law that the people have adopted, not their own conception of the natural law.

No one said that being a judge was easy. Being a judge means accepting that you may well have to send innocent men to their death, guilty men to their freedom, and that from time to time, you will have to apply the laws of man in derogation of the laws of God. That is in the nature of the job, and if your conscience won't permit it, you have no place on the bench. Judicial activism in the Lord's name is no better than judicial activism in the name of any other cause.

You might say that it's unconscionable to elevate man's law over God's law, but if that's your position, you're essentially advocating the overthrow of the Constitution of the United States. You're entitled to take that position, as long as you don't hold public office and you were born in this country, but those of us who are bound by oaths to support and defend the Constitution don't have that freedom, and my position on the meaning of law is in large part an attempt to give principled content to that oath.

Carhart

I completely agree that "in this life, the people have the power to reject God's law, just as they have the power to reject salvation." But I disagree that "those of us who are bound by oaths to support and defend the Constitution don?t have [the] freedom" to elevate man?s law over God?s law.

I understand your argument, that elevating natural law (God?s law) over the laws of man will lead to lawlessness. But I say that we are already lawless whenever ?being a judge means accepting that you may well have to send innocent men to their death, guilty men to their freedom, and that from time to time, you will have to apply the laws of man in derogation of the laws of God."

At the Justice Trial in Nuremberg, a judge who knowingly sentenced even one innocent Jew or Pole to death was guilty in the eyes of the prosecutors and judges. There was no "only a couple of atrocities" defense. God?s requirements for America judges are no less than America?s requirements of the Germans judges at Nuremberg.

Explain the difference between legal reformism and legal positivism to God if you want, but don't expect him to plea bargain with those who intentionally violate his commandment, ?thou shall not murder.?

Your reply calls to mind

Your reply calls to mind Justice Holmes' observation that a policeman may have a constitutional right to talk politics, but he doesn't have a constitutional right to be a policeman. I'm not suggesting for an instant that you have to be willing to follow positive law over God's law. Resign from the bench and any civil office, and you're under no obligation to do so. You have total freedom of conscience (although my bet is that "this statute violates God's law" won't get you much mileage as an affirmative defense). But just as Justice Holmes' policeman had to accept certain unpalatable conditions of employment or resign, so too must a judge or other public office holder make a choice.

To be sure, there are some cases in which sources of law run out before the case is decided. There are some cases where plain old judgment is needed. For just such cases, you need to make sure you have good women and men on the bench - and I would rather a conservative formalist than a liberal formalist. But those cases are a very small minority of cases. In the bulk of cases, there is controlling law, either to apply or to choose between.

The most fundamental premise of legal conservatives for decades1 has been that the Federal Judiciary in general and the Supreme Court in particular are not a Council of Guardians.2 But you, on the other hand, appear to have a different objection. It seems almost as if your objection is that they are a Council of Guardians in the service of the wrong cause. I mean, what you're advocating here is basically -- and I use this term with some hesitancy, because its casual use by the left has devalued it, and so I preface my use with the observation that I mean this in its most specific and conrete meaning -- theocracy. Let's be clear about what you're advocating: if I'm reading you right, you're saying that a judge faced with a law that they think is contrary to God's will should strike it down. Even setting aside the total unworkability of such a system, what you're advocating is nothing short of a root canal on the most fundamental foundations of American government.

  1. 1. "For nearly 25 years, conservative legal thinkers have been building an argument that liberalism transformed the Court into an instrument of national policymaking more appropriate to the nation's legislative institutions."
  2. 2. Pat and I have both posted in the last week or so defending Ledbetter, for example, on the premise that even if Title VII demands an unfair result, that doesn't give the courts free license to change it; I would say the same thing if Ledbetter had argued that in St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians he had advised the Roman brethren that the filing period on a Title VII action runs from each pay packet. I don't know what God's views on Title VII filing period is, and I don't know which is less fair, requiring employees to file almost immediately or subjecting employers to suits for conduct long psat, but I do know what the statute says, and that's what counts.

To boot, arguing that "God's

To boot, arguing that "God's Law" supercedes the established law of the land is to say that anything goes as long as someone somewhere claims it as a religious principle. Unless "God's Law" is defined as a particular AND well-defined theocratic doctrine, it is essentially no law at all, simply the subjective projection of one's own personal religious beliefs onto the entire body politic.

All chiefs, no Indians.

That's partially what I had

That's partially what I had in mind in saying it was unworkable - a prerequisite for a system where courts apply God's law is a canonical statement of what that law is. And reasonable, faithful protestants can and do disagree on the very specifics and particulars that lawsuits often boil down to - that's inherent in the nature of protestantism. On the other hand, if you had a formal, all-encompassing authoritative and binding doctrine, it might be workable. If you established the Catholic church, then I suppose such a system might be possible. But I'd go out on a limb and say that our guest probably isn't a catholic, and so likely wouldn't take kindly to a constitutional amendment establishing the catholic church at the federal level, and requiring all judges to apply its doctrine to cases before them.

(Lack of concrete agreement on specifically what God's law holds for particular cases isn't the only problem, but it's the biggest.)

Yeah, I was just coming in

Yeah, I was just coming in from a different angle. But at the point that you establish a single-doctrine "God's Law" as applicable via government enforcement, it has by definition then become Man's Law.

Conflicting Oaths

Tully and Simon have both pegged it. To quote scripture, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's.

You are certainly correct that carrying out man's law will not be adequate excuse before God. In fact, neither Simon, Tully, nor I have said the contrary. We are all subject to God's law for our actions, and He will judge us in the end.

But as Simon points out, the proper way out of that conundrum is to avoid taking conflicting oaths, or to resign your governmental position once the conflict becomes apparent.

Consider the death penalty. Jurors are always asked whether they have a moral objection to the death penalty prior to serving on a capital case. If they do, if they believe that God has forbidden the death penalty as punishment for any crime, then they are excused from the jury, because their religious principles would prevent them from obeying their duty under the law. That is the proper resolution of the matter.

On abortion, I believe that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided, and that there is not a constitutional right to an abortion. God forbid, but if a constitutional amendment were passed providing such a right, then I would expect all judges and other governmental officials to uphold and enforce that right, regardless of their personal religious beliefs or their personal view of the natural law. If a person could not do that, he or she would not be qualified to be a judge, or at the very least would have to recuse himself, on the grounds that obeying his oath of office would require him to violate a higher oath. The only way to honor both oaths would be to resign.

Carhart

Yes Simon, I do think that ?a judge faced with a law that they think is contrary to God's will (i.e., commands) should strike it down.? At Nuremberg, the prosecutors and judges thought the same. But they weren?t influence by humanism to the degree of Christian leaders today. I know ? I know, that?s judicial activism. And today the only judges willing to be judicially active are capricious humanists whose standards are fickle at best. But Christian judges (like Roy Moore), who answer foremost to God and have been bestowed with the tools of a righteous criminal code, are ridiculed, even by fellow Christian, for doing the same.

Simon, Pat, and Tully, by your own criterion the convictions at Nuremberg, in which the defense was ?we were just following the law,? were flawed. Not everything God said to do is of equal imperative. Israel, for instance, was to keep the Sabbath, unless their 8-day-old son needed circumcision. Then circumcision took precedence. So which of these would you say takes precedence ? ?render unto Caesar . . . ? or ?Thou shall not
Murder??

Yes, a judge who is unwilling to violate God?s enduring command not to murder an innocent person could recuse himself, but he could also do what?s right and accept the consequences. That concept, thou novel to you gentlemen, is in fact what God expects of his followers. Pontius Pilate washed his hands, but did not wash away the guilt of ignoring his political
authority to spare an innocent man?s life.

So how should a Christian judge figure out what God desires? He should get to know God and his ideas as well as most Christian judges revere manmade laws.

If you accept the consequences...

If you're willing to accept the consequences, impeachment for violating your oath and perhaps even prosecution for malfeasance in office, then certainly you may do as you please.

But are you truly trying to draw a moral equivalence between Roy Moore's refusal to obey legal court orders, issued by a court of proper jurisdiction, to remove the display of the Ten Commandments and prosecuting Nazis for crimes against humanity? I don't ridicule Judge Moore, but I condemn his actions, his refusal to obey the law. Whatever he or you think, he was placed in a position of secular authority to administer man's law, not God's. Had he been honest when he took his oath of office, and refused by stating flatly that he would not enforce the constitution and laws of Alabama if they conflicted with what he saw as the laws of God, then he would not have been in a position of authority to begin with.

As for Pontius Pilate, as I understand it, he was empowered by Roman law to exercise discretion in such matters. Being vested with discretion, he could have chosen to not allow Jesus' execution without violating the law.

Similarly, take George Ryan, former governor of Illinois. He exercised his legally-vested discretionary authority to commute the sentences of all the murderers on death row to life imprisonment. I think he was wrong to do that, but he didn't violate the law in so doing. But had he been a judge, refusing to impose or allow an execution which was compelled by the law, then he would have, and should have, been removed from the bench rapidly.

So you're entitled to your views. I think appointing or electing judges who share your views would lead to chaos and extreme levels of strive in our diverse, tolerant country. Thus, I would fight hard against your appointment or election as a judge. And I am prepared to answer for that position on judgment day myself.

Carhart

No, Simon, I am not "trying to draw a moral equivalence between Roy Moore's refusal to obey legal court orders, issued by a court of proper jurisdiction, to remove the display of the Ten Commandments and prosecuting Nazis for crimes against humanity." I am drawing a moral equivalence between prosecuting Nazis for kill Jews and others,and abortion -- the killing of innocent babies.

When we support judges and legislation that explain the proper way to kill babies,or when to kill them (like after the proper waiting period, or when the mother's parents have given their concent, or after the mother has viewed an ultrasound), we become like the Nazis, decided who of the innocent should die and when and how to kill them.

I would suggest, DOCT...

First, that last comment was me, not Simon. And you're the one who brought in Judge Moore to bolster your point. Had Moore been removed from office for ruling that there is no constitutional right to an abortion, I might see him as a hero, but that's not the principle he chose to take a major public stand on.

Second, I agree that Roe v. Wade was a wrong decision and should be overturned. It might be more worthwhile to accept support where you can find it rather than also seek ideological purity of reason from those who would like to see the same result. If you'll look back at the start of this thread, Simon and I were agreeing that Rev. Dobson was wrong to portray Carhart as a victory of any sort.

I would also recommend that you stick more directly with abortion, rather than some broader principle which you were arguing initially. Arguing that judges should always apply God's law when in conflict with man's law makes me fear that you advocate a return of some of the harsher strictures in Leviticus.

Notes

If you're willing to accept the consequences, impeachment for violating your oath and perhaps even prosecution for malfeasance in office, then certainly you may do as you please.

Isn't the lesson that you can do what wish if you're willing to take the consequences one of the lesser-emphasized lessons of the Gospels? Certainly Christ followed that path, knowing the consequences.

by your own criterion the convictions at Nuremberg, in which the defense was ?we were just following the law,? were flawed

Nope. The defense was "we were just following orders." I wondered how long it would take to run up against Godwin's Law in this thread. Question answered.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar?s, and unto God the things that are God?s." Matthew 22:21.

If your authority of office derives from the Constitution, then it is to the Constitution that you answer for your actions in exercising that authority, and the authority exercised must be based in same. Using secularly-derived authority to assume the right to exercise divine authority in violating that secular authority's foundation is not just a reach, it's hypocritical, and an active bearing of false witness in the swearing of your oath. One of the Ten Big No-No's.

Indeed, when I've sworn oaths of public office, I swore "so help me God" that I would support and defend the Constitution of the United States (and that of my state as well, depending on the office), and faithfully discharge the duties of said office, not substitute my personal religious beliefs for the Constitution and my own inclinations for my secular duty. Tack on another violation of the Commandments there--by swearing before God to do one thing, and then breaking that vow, you make wrongful use of the name of God, on top of having born false witness in taking the oath.

If your sworn duty in office conflicts with your religious beliefs, the solution does not lie in violating the Commandments. It lies in following your higher duty, even if that means surrendering your secular authority.

Cartart

Pat, sorry for crediting Simon with your work. But, did you just say that you would accept judicial activism if it overturned abortion? If so, I applaud you. Yes, I do assert that ?judges should always apply God's law when in conflict with man's law.? After all, it?s not my book that reads, ?We ought to obey God rather than man?(Acts 5:29). I am sorry that you think God?s ways are harsh and unreasonable. I believe he knows best and that his way make the most sense. For instance, he says that a thief should repay his debt two to seven fold, depending on what he stole. Humans prefer to cage thieves like animals for years at a time and make them pay back nothing. God wants fornicators to get married. Humans want them to keep fornicating. God says that if you can?t pay your debt you should become indentured. Humans say run up as much debt as you can and then file bankruptcy, even if it forces your creditors to lose their businesses. Etc.

Tully, Christ did not do what he wished. He prayed, ?not my will Father, but thy will be done.? Christ did what was right out of obedience to the father, and he is to be our example.

Enough sufficing. I?ll leave you gentlemen to banter amongst yourselves.

For instance, he says that a

For instance, he says that a thief should repay his debt two to seven fold, depending on what he stole.

I suppose we could apply this reasoning to Philip Morris USA v. Williams, and it might provide the test that the majority doesn't seem to want to make up provide for determining if a punitive award is reasonably related to the plaintiff?s harm. An appellate court trying to determine if an award of punitive damages is so excessive as to violate due process should ensure that the award is between two and seven times the amount of the compensatory damages. So God's law of punitive damages would be that with compensatory damages (that is, the court's determination of how much was "stolen") of $821,000, any punitive award must be at least $1,642,000 and at most $5,747,000, making the $79.5 million punitive award in Phillip Morris violative of God's law of punitive damages. Is that that the general idea?

How would you apply God's Law to the Regents of Univ. Cal. v. Credit Suisse USA appeal? Should the Supreme Court grant cert, and if so, what should it decide?

You misunderstand me...

I don't believe it would be judicial activism to overturn Roe v. Wade and Casey, because I believe those cases were wrongly decided to begin with. My conviction that there is no constitutional right to an abortion is not based on my own religious beliefs, but on sound principles of Constitutional interpretation.

Experience has shown, thus far, that attempts at creating civil societies dominated by religious law result primarily in misery and strife. Undoubtedly if we were all perfect vessels for the will of God, able to hear his commands with equal clarity, there would be no need of law at all, and we would return to Eden. But God has punished us for our sins and won't let us back in Eden, so we must do the best we can in light of that.

As for Christ, in his capacity both as a man and surely as a child of God, He was endowed with free will. He chose to subordinate his will to his Father's, and to continue on the path which led to his suffering and resurrection. Likewise, the martyrs chose, of their own free will, to suffer the secular consequences of their affirmation of Christ.

But of course those sacrifices are not what we ask of you, of judges in our civil society. Of you, we only ask that you not use the civil authority we have granted you to impose a religious law to which most of us did not consent.

But thank you for stopping by, it's been a fruitful conversation.

Pat, you nail it on free

Pat, you nail it on free will, sparing me the typing. Without free will and choice, there is no meaning in the Crucifixion, just robo-Jesus.

But I still wish to note that our guest is notably dodging the breaking of "God's Law" required for his stated position. False witness, and false oaths in God's name. If he wishes to quote scripture, well and good, but it's very selective to keep quoting one line while ignoring all the rest. Or to cite Leviticus on theft without naming it--while ignoring Leviticus 19:12 as regards swearing falsely in God's name.

Well, in fairness Tully...

He can expiate that sin (of false swearing) by sacrificing a lamb or, if he cannot afford a lamb, two doves or two pigeons.

Generally I find it more polite to avoid inquiring of such folk about their habits in ritual sacrifice, hair style, beard trimming practices, and similar matters. It's also nicer not to ask them if they've eaten any bacon or sausage lately, or if they've worn clothing worn of two different kinds of material.

As an aside, I do wonder how this provision (from Leviticus 19) is playing out among the political evangelicals during the immigration debates:

33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Me, I think that one's good advice.

I think that's exactly what

I think that's exactly what Sam Brownback has in mind when he talks about immigration.

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