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I don't understand…

Submitted by Simon on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 10:14pm

You're mad because… uh… Why? Because it's harder to get away with running red lights? Is that it?

It's not as cut and dry as

It's not as cut and dry as you make it. Having lived in DC when these were first instituted many people noticed that the time between yellow to red was quite a bit shorter at the light with the cameras than the light without cameras. That wasn't done to keep us "safer" but as a pure money grab. I am sure there are some other legal problems with it, but for me it is more about the principle of the matter. $400+ for rolling a red-light right turn. That is ridiculous.

You're conflating three

You're conflating three distinct issues: substantive traffic law (what they can get you for), enforcement (how they get you), and the schedule of fines (how much they get you for). The examples that you have cited (rolling stops and high fines) belong to the first and third categories respectively, but the cameras belong to the second category. If the problem is traffic law and its fines, why attack the cameras instead of the real target of your ire?

The problem is that be using

The problem is that you allow for the cloak of "public safety" over what, in some cases, is really just a means to increase money for the municipality. It is how the cameras and lights are sometimes abused by the governmental powers by tweaking settings that is the problem. Think of it like health care reform, once it is in place, its not going away and it only takes a little change here or there to increase the money flow. With most of the cameras being operated by private interests under contract with the cities getting a percentage of the fines, there is too much incentive for abuse. So it really is a problem with issues in category two that is the biggest complaint. I personally have no problem with the cameras if the light timings and rules for enforcement are set strictly and in a reasonable fashion. In addition, I do not feel that any camera should ever be operated on a "commission" basis. They should be under flat rate contracts.

It is not the problem with the camera itself, it is the ability for the powers that be to abuse it that cause such an outcry.

Well, with an eye on both

Well, with an eye on both this and what Brian Shapiro said below, I guess we could add two more categories: false positives and remedies. False positives are so closely-related to cameras that I'd pretty much concede them as a component of the enforcement category, so concerns that are really about false positives could reasonably be called concerns about cameras. But even then, I'm hesitant, because it seems to me that concerns about false positives in large part are (or are at least amplified by) concerns about remedies. If there is an efficient, streamlined system for contesting camera-based "AFHV tickets," I don't think the cameras themselves or the false-positives themselves would be too troubling. And again, that seems to situate the real problem in a different category to the cameras—I see concern about remedies, about schedule of fees, about substantive traffic law (Pat's example below of running a red at 2am, about which I can say: personally, I strongly support a law that says red lights operate as a stop sign between midnight and four AM). And certainly one can take the position that cameras are acceptable conditional on concerns about issues in other categories being satisfied, bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocumque defectu. But my sense is that the critics aren't saying this—perhaps it's what they mean, but it isn't what is being expressed. I think the only concern with the cameras qua cameras that I've seen raised is in Pat's comment below, which makes a sensible case for underenforcement.

The red light camera issue is

The red light camera issue is two fold in Florida. First, state law does not allow them for traffic violations. Cities have been using them as "code violations" and there is no consistency in what the fines are or how they are judged. Some cities have been using a no-tolerance standard where even borderline situations get charged. Plus, there is only suggested standards for the length of the yellow light in the state and there are a couple of high ranking cash cow cameras in south Florida that have been shown to have yellow light times under those suggested times. Florida's problem is really a lack of standards and legal ability for them to exist. The legislature may change that this session. However, there is also a strong backlash from some who just see the cameras as more ways to get money from the people instead of being true public safety. My guess is that they will pass a bill this session with restrictions similar to the "Waldo Law" on speeding tickets. Waldo was a little speed trap that would write a ticket for anyone going just one mph over the speed limit and collected 2/3 of its city budget through those tickets. The legislature passed a standard that said that a driver could not be pulled over for driving 5 MPH or less over the speed limit, unless there was another violation. Probably applying stronger standards so that the borderline calls are not done and only clear violations can be ticketed would make it acceptable.

Because I've known a lot of

Because I've known a lot of people who have been cited based on camera evidence when they weren't breaking any traffic laws.. like, turning right on a red light, which is legal here in California. Then you're forced to go through the bureaucracy of court. The problem is that there's not enough thoroughness in checking to make sure the person is in violation, and there's no urgency for it either---because its primarily a measure to increase city coffers and not prevent any real problem.

I don't have a problem with cameras, but I think violations caught by camera, if they're as simple as running a red light, should be limited to a fine, and it shouldn't affect your record for insurance purposes. The fines can be huge--up to $300--and added to that you get an increase in insurance fees, and possibly, if you're bad enough or unlucky enough, traffic school. Its just too much of a financial burden for minor (and possibly mistaken) offenses.

Surveillance society...

It's an early step down a very bad road. I don't want to live in Britain, with its CCTV cameras on every corner and in every shop, so that we're all being spied on all the time. One of the essential components of a relatively free society is that where a violation of law doesn't actually cause any harm, we generally don't face officiousness from authorities solely for the sake of "enforcing the law." If it's 2am and there's no traffic in any direction, and there's a clear view of traffic on both cross streets, there's no harm in running the red after stopping and looking. Lots of folks do that. Most of the time, either there's no cop around or, even if there is, they're not going to waste their time writing you up for a traffic violation which puts nobody at risk at all. But the camera doesn't care.

How about we put a sensor in your car to give you a citation every time you exceed the speed limit?

Personally, I encourage civil disobedience with regards to unmanned traffic cameras of all sorts.

I think one of my favorite

I think one of my favorite traffic cam civil disobedience was the group that placed boxes wrapped as gifts over some cameras. My personal preference is that they don't exist. I know my personal line is absolute when it comes to tracking. I will never support a GPS for tracking for fuel tax purposes. I have an electronic toll pass that I keep in a radio blocking sleeve when not on a toll road. Florida actually uses the transponder away from toll roads to track traffic flow in, what we are told, is an anonymous manner. It would not take a lot to change that to active tracking and use it for checking on speeding.

However, in this case, government is only following the lead of private interests. You can't go anywhere without being on a surveillance camera now. They are ubiquitous. However, they are mostly passive and not an active device.

Most cities are doing it just

Most cities are doing it just to raise funds, because they're spending too much and not getting enough revenue.. I doubt its preventing any accidents

amen

Amen, Pat.

And to Jim as well. This is absolutely a case of cloaking revenue collection as public safety. Could not have put it better.

Agreed, as well. The proof is

Agreed, as well. The proof is in the design.

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