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Antarctic temperatures disagree with climate model predictions
COLUMBUS , Ohio – A new report on climate over the world's southernmost continent shows that temperatures during the late 20th century did not climb as had been predicted by many global climate models...
...It also follows a similar finding from last summer by the same research group that showed no increase in precipitation over Antarctica in the last 50 years. Most models predict that both precipitation and temperature will increase over Antarctica with a warming of the planet.
My absolute favorite line:
Bromwich said the disagreement between climate model predictions and the snowfall and temperature records doesn't necessarily mean that the models are wrong.
Yep yep, it's the reality that's wrong! Darn reality! Doesn't it know that it's disagreeing with some beautifully correct models?
Some related notes on the cherry-picking and intentional ignorance process in the IPCC Summary here, from professor of climatology at Colorado State University and the state’s official climatologist, Roger Pielke Sr. (But, but....I thought the debate was over!)
In the Spirit of Month Python...
"Global Warming!"
"Global Warming!"
"Global Warming!"
"It's only a model...."
"Shush!!!!!"
I've always said the problem with the computer models is that they are unfalsifiable....and this PROVES it! Even when OBSERVED DATA contadicts it we are supposed to treat the model as correct.
Augh!!
Is there any part of the scientific process they DO understand?
It seems everday there is something new to shake your head about. Its too bad the MSM is so damn gullible.
Ooops!!
I meant to link this....interesting though Chielf Illiniwek is.
LMAO
Rich, the scientists doing the research do indeed understand. At least, for the most part. It's when it intersects with the politics that suddenly scenarios become certainties and somewhat vague and fuzzy hypotheses become "OH MY GOD WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IF WE DON'T DO WHAT THE GREENIES SAY!"
There are few certainties involved in the partial modeling of open complex dynamic systems. Especially when they're notably SDIC and chaotic. I'm not sure which is the greater hubris the idea that we can change the planet that easily, or the idea that we could stop it from changing.
You do see some funny claims....
I wish I could remember where I saw it, but there was someone claiming that while "weather" is sensitive to initial conditions, "climate" isn't because because it looks at the statistics of past observations. And I'll agree to that, if you are going to restrict climate to the study of the past. But climate models predicting the state of the atmosphere 50 or 100 years in the future are obviously bound by the same chaotic conditions as weather.
It was so silly I wondered how they could type it with a straight face.
LOL
Yeah, I've seen something like that claim. I think it was along the lines of "But all the models still predict the same type of behavior within this particular projection band, and so even though none of the models agree with each other in their particular projections, overall they must be right! We'll just add them all together and use the median as the center, assign it a probability, and voila, there's the consensus."
This is a prime error of "meta-analysis," the combining of model results in the hope that the errors and weaknesses of any given study will cancel out against all the others, and the aggregated results will thus be more reliable than any of the individual models. If all the models use roughly the same techniques and the same data, they'll all produce results within the bounds of the assumptions. As Mann did with his "hockey stick." The results were an artifact of the technique, not a valid projection from the data.
Any time the result +/- the
Any time the result +/- the error goes across zero the paper is junk.
I don't know, the fact that
I don't know, the fact that the models didn't predict an outlying region and that their observational data is so spotty doesn't really say much about the validity of the model as a whole. The article demonstrates (more or less) good science by having them publish that it's not what's expected and then coming up with some hypotheses why this might be the case. If some of those turn out to be right, it'd be explained within the general hypothesis of Global Warming and if not then they'll certainly have to look further.
I didn't find the second link to be much of a help because he's almost entirely focusing on short term trends when the IPCC is talking about long term trends. Plus a commenter shows how a couple of his rebuttals might not be correct.
That said, I was searching around the site a bit and found these two links here and here. Basically his argument is that he believes localized and heterogeneous forcings (some of them definitely man-made) might actually have a vast influence on the climate that we don't know about and have previously been written off. His major point is that if the established theory was correct then warming would appear in the oceans as well as surface temperatures but (he believes) that our observations are better supported by his ideas. Of course the ocean has warmed drastically but his ideas (in my opinion) are very welcome and definitely offer an entirely new way to look at the situation that might prove to be better than the accepted theory. This and the "it's all just solar output" theories are really the only two good challenges I've found...and the solar output theory was incorporated and found to reduce our contribution while simultaneously increasing the probability that our calculated contribution was correct.
Hmm...
Does a model HAVE an "outlying region"? I mean, sure, the Antarctic is remote from where we live, but why should the model have trouble predicting in an area because of its geographic remoteness from the model maker?
If it were a question of not having good enough data that would be one thing, but I dont think that is the issue here.
Note that it's not just in
Note that it's not just in what's incorporated, but in how it's incorporated. MOST of the forcing factors in the models are poorly understood. I've found numerous instances in the forcing models where the assumptions of the incorporated forcing factors are (to be kind) somewhat at variance with actual observations. Like the model assumptions of compounded 1% growth in atmospheric CO2, when the observed rate is consistently less than half of that for the entire observational record.
Likewise, the wattage-per-meter forcing assumptions have been continually revised over the last two IPCC reports, and they still keep cutting them as the predictions fail to match the models. Even from a skim of the Summary, it's apparent that factors have been cut once again to conform to reduced baseline observations, resulting in lower-rise scenarios.
Pielke's often derided as a "denier" by the politico-warming crowd when he's not (IIRC, he believes that human activity is responsible for 30% of observed temperature rise). He's a scientist who insists that science be treated as such, complete to the warts and uncertainties. I respect him enormously for it.
Oops, I was going to write
Oops, I was going to write that but forgot. Yes, I am assuming (since the guy in the article said it) that the region is remote from a model standpoint. If they built their models around what Antarctica should do then obviously it's not and the whole thing might be wrong.
But in general, any model is just an abstraction and areas that are "remote" (i.e. have widely different local behavior than the model at large) will be poorly predicted. That's what the author of the paper was suggesting.
Pielke's view is that by nature, ALL areas are "remote" because the behavior is so localized and thus all models say nothing about regional weather. Maybe he's right and he's offered compelling enough mechanics (from my semi-ignorant viewpoint) that it should definitely be taken seriously.
As for the forcing factors, the IPCC conclusions where revised downward as well, so I don't see a problem. If there isn't global warming then the models should say as much within a decade or so.
Yeah, but
If there isn't global warming then the models should say as much within a decade or so.
Yeah, but we're supposed to dedicate trillions against the hypothetical worst-case what-if NOW. Even though doing so wouldn't avoid more than a small fraction of the total rise predicted in any scenario.
That's assuming we buy into the Greenie prescription. Strange how their preferred "solutions" happen to be the same as what they were preaching (for other reasons) before they had global warming to hang the agenda on. Pure coincidence, I'm sure.
What do you mean by "Greenie
What do you mean by "Greenie prescription?" Almost all the proposals I've heard have to do with reducing fuel consumption (although for political reasons and ignorance they're picking the wrong thing with fuel cells/corn ethanol) and emissions (at least as a start through cheap solutions like scrubbers).
From an long term economic view point I don't understand the resistance to the current proposals. If we are wrong about global warming but adopt them we'll have a lot less pollution (that we'll have to pay for down the line anyway) and cheaper energy that's home grown.
The Secretary of the Treasury even thinks we should join Kyoto for these very reasons. He's said that any short term economic loss caused by pumping billions into the programs now would be made up in the intermediate term by the great inventions and need to spread them around the country.
Plus, if they are right about global warming, then because of our understanding of the non-linear dynamics, any reduction could have a huge lessening of the final warming amount. Since unlike most skeptics you seem to actually respect scientists, then I don't see why a short term push towards these technologies while the consenus is on the "we might be able to affect it side" is unwarranted, and then if the consenus changes in a decade or so we could slow down support. I
n my view is this especially a good example of hedging our bets because the science for these new technologies will require getting over a massive theoretical "hump" that private companies can't really afford, while once we've gotten over that then they can innovate on the application side -- almost exactly what is happening with genetic engineering.
I mean....
I mean carbon taxes. I mean more domestic restrictions on fossil-fuel discovery and recovery. I mean mandatory imposition of expensive and unproven (and at this point often undeveloped and non-existent) technologies. I mean a significant portion of both national and world GDP going into Green agenda items rather than into other uses that could be immensely more productive.
Almost all the proposals I've heard have to do with reducing fuel consumption (although for political reasons and ignorance they're picking the wrong thing with fuel cells/corn ethanol) and emissions (at least as a start through cheap solutions like scrubbers).
Do you believe that these things come without price tags? That they're cheap or free? Define "cheap." Let's see some cost/benefit analysis there. Because the costs are very real and CAN be estimated*, while the claimed benefits are a wee bit more ephemeral in nature.
And in any case, alt-fuels and alt-energy will be developed anyway as fossil fuels become more expensive. It's called a "market." What the Greens want is to make those fuels more expensive NOW through taxation. We already have one of those solutions that IS economically feasible to implement in the current market--nuclear power. Which the Greens work hard to keep politically unfeasible. I'd note that ethanol fuels also produce carbon output. Ethanol is an alt-fuel solution, not a carbon solution.
The Secretary of the Treasury even thinks we should join Kyoto for these very reasons. He's said that any short term economic loss* caused by pumping billions into the programs now would be made up in the intermediate term by the great inventions and need to spread them around the country.
So what? The Secretary of the Treasury would need to prove that, and he can't. It's speculative BS, "pie in the sky, bye and bye." Paulson's not a scientist (other than a Christian Scientist by religion). He's an English lit major who picked up a Harvard MBA on the road to becoming a very rich Wall Street environmentalist, and he's been preaching the Green gospel for many decades. Which proves my point--he was arguing for carbon taxes and such back when people were still worried about the new looming ice age. The Green agenda remains the same--all that changes is the "problem" to which the preferred Green "solutions" must be applied. As I said, it's amazing how the "problems" always seem to require the same "solutions," even though the "problems" keep changing.
Plus, if they are right about global warming, then because of our understanding of the non-linear dynamics, any reduction could have a huge lessening of the final warming amount.
"If." Mighty BIG if. The "anthropogenic CO2-forced catastrophic runaway warming" scenario promoted by the Apocalyptics is seriously flawed, and the bulk of the observed warming to date is from purely natural causes. We are indeed probably contributing a bit to it, but our contribution to the warming trend is only a fractionof the whole. To accomplish any meaningful reduction in current CO2 levels would require HUGE resource inputs and sacrifice, and the amount of CO2 increase avoided (and any resulting reductions in temperature rise) would be minimal. As in major fractions of world GDP, money that people now use for little things like "food."
Trade-offs. Quantify 'em. Without VERY solid quantifiable backing for cost/benefit analysis, nebulous claims of better-world-if-only fall under the heading of "religion" as far as I'm concerned. We're seeing the heirs of the Club of Rome and The Limits of Growth in their next-generation incarnation. The hair-shirt of modernity.
[*--The estimated ongoing cost of fully implementing the Kyoto protocol alone is 1-1.5% of world GDP, with the greatest effect being felt by already-industrialized nations, while carbon-emissions growth in "developing" nations such as China and Inda would be completely unimpeded. DoE estimates for impact of US Kyoto implementation run as high as 4% of US GDP annually. That's somewhat higher than the ongoing historical average of US GDP growth--at that level, the US economy could actually shrink on an ongoing basis if we fully implemened Kyoto, which is why the US Senate voted unanimously in 1997 to not even consider it.]
It strikes me....
It strikes me that the shrillest of the doomsayers are those who shriek about the "trillions" that energy efficiency will cost our economy. You seem to have plenty of problems with climate modeling but none with economic modeling. By the way, every "greenie" see right through ethanol which actually uses more energy to make and transport than it produces.
And if you are hanging your "no anthrogenic warming" hat on this study....well, you have a very poor notion of how science works.
Read some actual science:
http://www.realclimate.org/
LMAO
Another True Believer heard from! One wrong on the facts but long on the snark, as usual. So tell me Mike, how does science work? Is it a process of making unsupported claims and then insulting anyone who questions them? Is it decided by vote? Does it consist of pointing at issue agenda websites?
Unsupported claims and
Unsupported claims and insults...yeah, that's what climatology is guilty of...sure. Yes, I linked to a site that contains discussion on climate science. You can read about results, find links to studies, critiques of studies, you can argue with climate scientists and find boring things like math, physics and chemistry there. Or, you can get your climate information from blogs. Good luck with that.
Mike, let me ask you this...
Mike, exactly what policies should be adopted by the government at this point? You're not in favor of ethanol, obviously, so what are you in favor of?
Honestly, I'm not sure.
Honestly, I'm not sure. This is the debate that we should be having.
Sure, I'm generally opposed to nuclear energy as a centerpiece of the energy solution, but I'd like to hear a real debate about it. At this point, that's obscured by the noise surrounding climate change science. Obviously, changing consumption without severly affecting the economy is step one.
Europe, for instance, is addressing this. Yes, they have lots of nuclear energy, but they also have mass transit on a scale that dwarfs the U.S.
I'm not thrilled with everything about Kyoto. We need to hold China and India's feet to the fire. Is it against GM and Ford's interest to increase auto fuel efficiency?...well, I bet their thinking has changed on that.
What annoys me is that there are a number of economically neutral or potentially beneficial steps we can take toward lower energy consumption that seem to be off of the table at this point (CAFE standards, etc.)...most of which would mitigate climate change to a degree and, regardless of that issue, would be good for the U.S.
Mike:
Mike:
But that doesn't really address Tully's point upthread: We already have an alternative energy source "that IS economically feasible to implement in the current market--nuclear power. Which the Greens work hard to keep politically unfeasible." If what was on the table was basically a process to phase out - replace, I guess - all existing fossil fuel burning power plants with nuclear plants, while stipulating it isn't your preferred solution, would you consider that to be an improvement on the status quo?
Uh huh
What annoys me is that there are a number of economically neutral or potentially beneficial steps we can take toward lower energy consumption that seem to be off of the table at this point (CAFE standards, etc.)...most of which would mitigate climate change to a degree and, regardless of that issue, would be good for the U.S.
Name 'em. Drag out the figures and show it empirically, if you can. How do YOU know they're "economically neutral?" Because someone else said so, and you believe them? Heh. That's called "faith," Mike, not science.
CAFE standards sure aren't neutral--they cost money, and for now we're working into diminishing returns there until the technology catches up. They also cost in other ways, as the accident-fatality figures for compact and subcompact cars attest. BTW, if you're really interested in examining that you can find some relevant info here. It does not say what you seem to think it should.
If you wish to get a start on examining the climate change research for yourself instead of taking the words of others, someone less scrupulous about their non-disclosure agreement with the IPCC than I am has posted the IPCC draft report HERE. Without violating my agreement I can say that I have not found any discrepancies between that posted copy and the one I received from the IPCC last May. Have at. It's an impressive overview of the research. It isn't until it leaps up the ladder into the hands of the politicians who blatantly misrepresent it that I start to have big problems with it.
Well, since you seem to be
Well, since you seem to be both an economist and a climate scientist (you must have spent the greater part of your life researching both fields as I see that you would never take anything on "faith" in what anyone else has to say), perhaps you can give us your expanded model including all relevant empiracal data on all of the possible solutions to the energy issue.
It's funny that the implication of the IPCC draft is that it misrepresents the underlying science and yet I hear little complaint from those who did that work. Oh, that's right, that's because they have a "liberal agenda" which includes misrepresenting their own science...wouldn't it be easier just to make the numbers up? That seem to be the stock in trade of the skeptics camp.
I spent a good bit of my
I notice you seem congentially unable to bring any actual evidence to your pronouncements, nor address that offered by others. Gee, never seen THAT approach before.
I spent a good bit of my lifetime learning how to properly employ and analyze research and research methodology. That doesn't change from field to field. It's the basis of ALL methodological research, something you seem blissfully unaware of. Indeed, you seem blissfully unaware of the basics of science itself.
But thanks for playing True Believer for us! At this point you've copiously demonstrated that YOU don't understand the science involved, have nothing original to offer, and are incapable (or at least unwilling) to discuss the science or offer any coherent argument other than ad hominem. But thank you very much for stopping by and clearly illustrating the points made here early and often about cheerleaders, True Believers, and how those with Green agendas are doing their darndest to smother honest debate and discussion in promoting their agenda.
Have a nice day!
That's my concern, Mike...
The global warming advocates are demanding, with increasing shrillness, that everybody sign on board and admit that it's a huge, terrible, massive crisis of a problem, without advocating specific policy changes.
Obviously the plan of Gore and the others is to force everybody to sign on to the doom scenario before unveiling specific plans for corrective action. Me, I want to see the plans now.
I may think the risk is great enough to justify a 10 cent tax on gasoline, but not great enough to justify doubling my electric bill. As a conservative, I believe a great deal in the tragedy of the commons, and I think that rationale can actually support some kind of carbon emissions market. But how expensive the credits are, how tight the limits should be, are very crucial details that would affect my decision on specific policy options.
I'm not buying a pig in a poke. Tell me the policies you want enacted, and I'll evaluate those. I'm not signing on to enforced "scientific consensus" which will do little but give political support to undefined policies to be proposed in the future.
Honestly, I'm not sure.
Honestly, I'm not sure. This is the debate that we should be having.
Sure, I'm generally opposed to nuclear energy as a centerpiece of the energy solution, but I'd like to hear a real debate about it. At this point, that's obscured by the noise surrounding climate change science. Obviously, changing consumption without severly affecting the economy is step one.
Europe, for instance, is addressing this. Yes, they have lots of nuclear energy, but they also have mass transit on a scale that dwarfs the U.S.
I'm not thrilled with everything about Kyoto. We need to hold China and India's feet to the fire. Is it against GM and Ford's interest to increase auto fuel efficiency?...well, I bet their thinking has changed on that.
What annoys me is that there are a number of economically neutral or potentially beneficial steps we can take toward lower energy consumption that seem to be off of the table at this point (CAFE standards, etc.)...most of which would mitigate climate change to a degree and, regardless of that issue, would be good for the U.S.
Oops, didn't mean to post
Oops, didn't mean to post that again. What I meant to post was a comment on
the fact that nuclear energy is NOT in fact as cheap as it may seem on the surface. Producing a lot more of it produces a significant waste disposal problem and an increased terror threat (weapons grade plutonium is a by-product). Also, it means accepting a rare, but occasional, Chernobyl...the cost of that is not considered in the equation by the nuclear industry. Also, it means nothing for transportation energy issues until fuel-cell technology is developed. So, it may be a wash compared to developing other renewable resource technologies, reducing consumption and increasing efficiency. Is it better than the status quo? Maybe, but...
the cheapest washing machine available at Wal-mart may be better than your broken one, but is it in your economic interest to buy it?
I agree with one point....
Mike says: "You seem to have plenty of problems with climate modeling but none with economic modeling."
well, you see that is kind of just the point. Were I to show you an economic model purporting to forecast the next 5, 10 or 100 years worth of economic activity, you would know it was BS. Hell, most everyone would know it is BS. An economy might travel down a path, but people, governments, corporations etc make decisions that affect outcomes in ways a forecast model never could. In effect one can think of the economy most completely as a nearly constant series of little corrections very few of which are meant to address much beyond the local level. These "little corrections" (some of which are little "blunders" rather than "corrections") are the way the world actually works, and they are the reason that long range economic modelling is problematic (at best.) (I agree that it might be different to look at the costs involved with making specific changes for long periods of time, e.g. the costs involved in tranisitoning from one technology system to another, but even then the uncertainty creeps in quickly.)
The question becomes, what do you do when a scientific concerns is matched up with economic necessity? Do you throw out the reality of the "little corrections" model in favor of a huge marco-economic overhaul that no one can fully foresee the consequences? (Call that the Koyoto path.) Or do you follow the path of "little corrections"? (Which is the path of folks like Lomborg and Pielke.)
I know I'm throwing my lot in with the Lomborg and Pielke's of the world. It is the most scientific of options... by far.