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Whatever
Teach your children well, that's Sippican's lesson for the day. He explains why some adults hate seeing children out in public places, and how that group's inability to act like grown-ups causes their own children to behave obnoxiously, once they have some.
A couple I know has 2 very cute little children (well, they're growing older now, but this story is from 5 or 6 years ago). The couple is fairly typical of the well-educated, very permissive species of adult, people who believe in "creativity" and "tolerant" and "diverse" world views. They had a large and, frankly, vulgar sculpture of part of a woman (I'm sure it was a fertility symbol, or maybe a message about the oppression of women or something) displayed in their living room. They would never dream of imposing something as rigid as discipline or respect for their elders on their children (well, truth be told, I occasionally got the impression that dad was ready to take a belt to the little rats, but mom certainly wouldn't stand for that).
When the family would be out at some public gathering, the kids (age 8 or 10 or so) would run around all their parents friends, jumping on us, tugging on us, grabbing our ties, demanding our attention. And do you know what the parent said about this, as you would try to have a conversation with them? Bupkus. Nada. Not a word. Maybe the occasional, perfunctory "stop that," but nothing with any conviction or teeth in it. And so, naturally, the children kept doing what they were doing, until we managed to make excuses and get away from them before we smacked them a good one ourselves.
Those kids will turn out bright enough, and free will has a way of eventually kicking in so that a person starts to behave appropriately regardless of parenting. But the parents simply could not see that they were, in fact, training their children to be undisciplined little louts.
I took my 4 cousins to a Christmas show once. It was long, boring, and our seats were terrible (but our grandmother was in the show, so we had to go). Normally, at home, these kids were a handful. You know the type, all boys, had a frequent-customer card at the local emergency room, legos everywhere, cap guns, toy cars on the floor waiting for you to step on one and break a leg. But they knew that when they went out they were expected to behave. And they did. They sat through the whole ceremony without a peep, no paper airplanes, no whispered comments about the unsightly people sitting nearby. On the way out, several older folks stopped and complimented me on their behavior (which, of course, I credited to their mother, my aunt).
So please, parents, listen to Sippican and teach your children well.
Update: This story from 2 years ago, Behave Or Else, reports on steps some businesses have taken to encourage parents to reign their children in while shopping or eating out. My favorite? The sign posted saying: "Unattended children will be given espresso and a free puppy."
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preaching to the choir
Well, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to me. My wife and I don't have kids. But we LOVE kids that are decently behaved. Sadly, they are a rarer treat than we'd all like to see. A child's behavior is most definitely a reflection on his or her parents. Good parents set boundaries and consequences, and provide consistency and stability. Children need cues. They need guidance. That's what parenting is.
Many of our friends have children, and we know which ones are doing a good job. The most laissez-faire parents do themselves, their children, and all of us a disservice, if you ask me.
The problem, of course, is how to get the people who NEED to understand this to understand it and follow through on it. My wife and I both KNOW it's not easy. It can be a daily or hourly or even amoment to moment struggle of wills. It requires eternal vigilance, and the willingness to be the bad guy if necessary. In fact our understanding of the relentless effort it requires to be good parents is a large part of the reason we decided not to have children.
I'm certain that some folks view couples who choose not to have children as selfish narcissists in some sense, whether small or large. IMO, it's more selfish to have children without understanding the effort required and committing yourself to it. We took a hard look at ourselves and decided we couldn't lie to each other about our capabilities.
I'd generally not consider stepping in to discipline someone else's child unless there was a present danger, or the child is being destructive, but I'll draw a line. In public or at large gatherings, children of permissive parents tend to gravitate to other folks who will be permissive or politely laissez-faire. My experience is that it's not that difficult to transmit to such kids that I'm not one of those people, you don't even necessarily have to raise your voice.
Well, in addition to the normal concerns...
Regarding my own pet example, in addition to the normal concerns, the daddy was one of my bosses, so my available options were even more limited than normal. I agree with you in principle, however, about kids knowing instinctively which adults they can get away with stuff with, and which they can't.
Brian, do you ever watch any of those Nanny-911 type of shows? I watched one where the mother told her kid he couldn't have a lollipop 6 times... once for each time he actually went ahead and took one. Now, I think she should have gotten up and done something to the kid (like, oh, take the lollipop away) the FIRST time the kid disobeyed the admonition, but surely even the densest would have seen the pattern by the fifth time? I mean, by that point, you can hardly blame the kid for not listening to her; she obviously doesn't mean what she says.
yup
Yup. Interesting in an auto accident mkind of way. Some of those parents are real train wrecks, aren't they? I find some of the denseness unfathomable. Seems to me there's nothing but good that comes from children understanding that no means no the first time, and that it always means no. It doesn' mean maybe and isn't subject to change in response to whining.
Your are IMO 100% correct....you can't blame kids for testing boundaries. The quicker and more firmly and consistently you establish them, the sooner children accept them. And you just can't let your child win a test of wills. The first time a child takes a lollipop without asking or in contravention of a parents wishes ought to be the last time that lollipops are even around for awhile.
I love listening to people
I love listening to people without children talk about the proper way to raise children. :-D
I remember in our years BC (Before Children), going to restaurants and being irritated by rambunctious kids and crying babies. Now they just make me smile. Because they're not mine.
Babies and toddlers can't help it, of course. Pre-school kids are still learning it--and parents should be teaching them. They'll fail a bunch, as kids are hard-headed non-robots, but they should be working on very bright-line rules. When ours were pre-school/toddler age and we'd go out to eat, and they'd ask "Smoking or non-smoking?" my answer was always "Screaming kid section, please..."
Ages 8 to 10? Tsk tsk. The only conceivable excuse is actual disability on the part of the child, not the parent's unwillingness or inability. But here's a secret. Those who don't establish authority and discipline at a subconscious and visceral level over their kids at a very young age, and keep it established, WILL pay for that neglect when the kids hit adolescence. And then, you can smile as the parents go through hell...but smile quietly.
Well...
Well, we generally opine around here on all sorts of things that we don't have precise personal experience with, so why should child-rearing be spared? ;-)
The subconscious and visceral air of authority is invaluable in a whole host of areas. I remember once watching a video of a DWI sobriety test being done by a cop who just lacked that air of authority. It's a very subtle thing, composed of subtle nuances of voice tone, posture, facial expressions. This cop just didn't have that magic, and it was like he was inviting the suspect to decline to cooperate. And the suspect took him up on that invitation, refusing to cooperate with any of the field sobriety tests being conducted, politely but firmly.
Because of the cop's inability to project that tone of authority, I lost the DWI portion of the case (the guy never admitted he had had anything to drink). Fortunately, the judge knew what was going on, and still gave the guy 6 months in jail for resisting arrest, for when he refused (non-violently) to get out of the back of the police car. I miss practicing in front of that judge.
point taken
I do my best to be tolerant. When i feel myself getting irritated I remind myself that i don't b one of those sterotyp[ical childless "kids should be seen and not heard" jerkwads. Kids have as much right to a given public space as I do. It's not the noise and occasional rambunctiousness that bothers me, it's when parents are being obviously derelict.
I'm sure as a non-parent that there are situations where it seems to me that parents are being derelict and they're not, just picking their battles. A mile in their shoes, and all that. But I do reserve the right to question the efficacy of the parenting strategy of ignoring a child seriously misbehaving in public.
As we know, something can be comparatively simple without being easy. Not to say that parenting is simple per se, but it seems that there is a short list of straightforward approaches that many good parent have in common. In other words, something like it being 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. You do nee the insight, of course, but the will and the vigilance is essential.
Don't get me wrong--the
Don't get me wrong--the incident Pat described goes well above and beyond picking one's battles as a parent, and wouldn't fly in the least in my home. Those kids would've gotten escalating "reminders" on behavior, were they mine. First, initial polite authoritarian reminder/notification to chill out and not annoy the guests. Second, "NO. STOP THAT NOW. OR ELSE." Third, OR ELSE followthrough. And by that age they should damn well already KNOW what the OR ELSE is going to be, and it should be a substantive deterrent/punishment.
Some folks will skip one of the first two steps, but I'm easy-going with kids. The two essential steps ar notice and followthrough. Ignoring it and allowing it to continue is Right Out. Why not just give 'em some whiskey and the car keys....
I remember in our years BC
I remember in our years BC (Before Children), going to restaurants and being irritated by rambunctious kids and crying babies. Now they just make me smile. Because they're not mine
You got that right. Nothing better than someone else with worse kids.
Discipline is a tricky bit of business. I have spanked and may again. I have been known to bellow in a threatening manner. There have been time-outs and all the rest.
But at the same time my goal is to acheive a reasonable level of compliance, not total compliance. It's not a foolish thing to encourage independence, even a bit of defiance, in kids. Defiance -- in moderation -- is a virtue. I want my kids to be able to stand up to me. I even want them to be able to stand up to Sippican and Pat. After all, these are American kids, right?
By the same token, since they live in my house where Mommy can't cook and Daddy can but is too lazy, they've been required to learn to tolerate a two course meal in a restaurant. Next up we add a desert course. Within a year or so I'm hoping for a full tasting menu at Alinea or French Laundry. Then, if I can just get them to memorize wine vintages!
LOL--with you there
But at the same time my goal is to acheive a reasonable level of compliance, not total compliance.
Not enough years in my life to even attempt total compliance! I want 'em ornery and independent by the time they leave home. I also try not to make the rules TOO broad. I want them to exercise their intelligence in figuring out the loopholes, and standing up for themselves. We're a lot more likely to get complete compliance on the things that really do matter if we don't make those fences too tall in the first place. Lotta wiggle room when you get past the required compliance...and a lot better chance they'll comply voluntarily to polite requests, where orders would produce rebellion.
They don't even have to be worse than mine were at that age in restaurants to make me smile. Just knowing mine aren't that bad NOW is reward enough. Been there, have sympathy for kids just being kids. And for their parents....
Oh, yeah...
A good friend of mine, with three young ones (the oldest just hit 1st grade) says she's very glad that her children are independent minded, not obsequious little snivelling snots... about 52% of the time. She's constantly wondering whether they got that rebellious attitude from, too... but her own mother is always happy to remind her, as she clucks in gleeful happiness that her curse came true!
On Spanking
Oh yeah, meant to mention. My own theory is that spanking reduces enormously in usefullness by the time they reach school age. Before that, it's one of the things that reaches right past their unformed little animal brains and creates a visceral reflex. You can explain to a two-year-old all you like about why they shouldn't play with fire or run into the street. Good luck. But catching them in the act and IMMEDIATELY associating said act with pain produces a primal conditioned avoidance reflex, one that does not require conscious thought to work. Spanking them later on is worthless. None of this "Wait 'til your father gets home" stuff.
The more self-aware they get, the less useful it is coming from an authority figure*. I don't think either of ours ever got spanked after 2nd grade or so, and maybe not that late in life. Sure, they got threatened with it, but the threat always produced compliance...and after a while, just THAT LOOK had the same effect. If you've children past kindergarten, you already know about THAT LOOK. Or maybe you remember it from when you were a child. :-)
[*--Coming from your peers it still works.]
2d grade is about where I
2d grade is about where I stopped, too. At that point they begin to realize you can't really escalate.
However, like any prudent president I never want to take the military option entirely off the table.
I challenge you, good sir
Babies and toddlers are a great deal more in control of their behaviour than we often believe. I remember witnessing a permissive friend of mine being driven to shrieks by her two year-old daughter. I was placed where I could see the girl's face and the sheer conscious glee on it was unmistakable. I do grant you that we do have to cut them a certain amount of slack, but my own five children learned very, very young that being obnoxious was the best possible way to lose any advantage they had. If they screamed for attention, I popped them in their crib and closed the door and didn't come back till they were quiet.
Why is it we expect more self-control from a three-month-old puppy than from our three-year-old children? They are quite as capable of understanding that good results flow from good behaviour as any quadriped. They are also quite capable of understanding that if Mommy will bribe them to stop bad behaviour, the way to get the bribe is through bad behaviour. I've seen that principle in action, unfortunately.
Now if only it were that simple with teenagers...
The Walrus Said
Because...
Why is it we expect more self-control from a three-month-old puppy than from our three-year-old children?
Because we can drop the puppy off at the pound if it doesn't connect, and because dogs are inbred for obediance? :-) A three-moth-old puppy is developmentally not that far off from a three-year-old human. But not all puppies are that trainable that young....
But what's the challenge? I happen to agree with most all of that, and have used the same strategies. But a swat on the butt short-circuits having to percolate through toddler logic circuits. I reserved it for things that needed instant canalization of the cortex. Usually things that could cause harm if repeated. Like running into the street and such.
"Unattended children will be
"Unattended children will be given.." That is hilarious!
Like Tully I always get a kick out of the 'inexperienced' views on childraising. Not that Pat and Brian aren't right in theory. It's just that it gets a little messy in actual practice.
Mine are at the age I can be expecting grandkids soon(er), and I've made them promise that they will take parenting classes (I'll be more than happy to pay for it) when the blessed event occurs. I got a lot of it right I think, but I regret a lot of the way I handled parenting. I know I wouldn't undertake it again, and probably wouldn't do any better at it anyhow. Applying discipline and instilling self-respect, all with a healthy dose of security is a tough balancing act. Most of the time I think the kids turned out alright in spite of me rather than because of me.
Besides, this has all just been a practice run anyway. Or else they forgot to give me the manual?
Another sign...
...that I've seen in antique shops and such says "Unattended children will be sold." Except as their parents we know there's a shortage of buyers, so it doesn't work on us. ;-D
Better yet was the sign I saw that said "If you leave your children unattended we'll treat them like our grandchildren. We'll load them up with sugar and caffeine, then send them home with you." But I like Espresso and Free Puppy better. It's got more teeth!