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Whatever
As I said elsewhere, I think Palin did a great job on the debate overall, and Biden did good as well, and made no major gaffes, except possibly one. I say possibly, not because it wasn't a gaffe (It was), but because it's debatable how big of a deal it is.
There was a question asked about the Vice Presidency and Cheney, and Biden answered thusly (via Ace of Spades):
"Vice President Cheney has probably been the most dangerous Vice President we've had in American history. He has the idea...he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the Vice President of the United States. That's the executive. He works in the executive branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.
And the primary role of the Vice President of the United States of America is to support the President of the United States of America. Give that President his or her best judgment when sought and as the Vice President to preside over the senate only in a time when in fact there is a tie vote. The constitution is explicit, the only authority the Vice President has from a legislative standpoint is to vote only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea that he's a part of the legislative branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of the unitary executive..and look where it's gotten us.
Now most of that statement was fine in my book, but Biden got it wrong when he referenced Article I as defining the executive role of the Vice President. Article II deals with the Executive branch. Article I, Section 3, Clause 4 gives the VP titular headship of the Senate, and the deciding vote in the case of a tie. Article I grants the VP legislative powers, not Executive powers, and as Ace points out:
Article II does not extend to the VP any executive powers. Sections 2 and 3 specifically grant duties and powers to the President; the VP goes unmentioned. In fact, Article II provides for compensation for the President, but doesn't direct the VP to receive anything!
So Joe Biden is talking out his ass when he says "Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the Vice President of the United States. That's the executive. He works in the executive branch." Article I doesn't define the VP's executive roles. In fact, neither does Article II, because the VP has no role to play within the executive branch except to take over in case of death or incapacitation of the President.
Now to be fair to Biden, I suspect what he meant to say was that Cheney has no real legislative power, and is bound to the Executive branch. Cheney asserted that he wasn't a part of the Executive, and Palin agreed. The thing is though, according to Glenn Reynolds, that argument may not be as absurd as it first seemed.
Now, I'm no constitutional scholar, so I'm hoping the SF legal crew can help me out here, but I think the issue was that Cheney was claiming the right not be bound by Executive in order to avoid subpoenas. Let me say that I don't think this argument justifies Cheney's imperious power grabs, and even Reynolds argues that Cheney's argument poses real problems for the modern activist VP. Frankly, I'm getting kind of confused even writng this, so this is a bit different than a gaffe. I think what some took issue with was Biden claiming to be a constitutional expert, which he clearly ain't, at least not on this. Not to mention that his saying the Article I dealt with the Executive.
Another related issue was Palin's assertion that the constitution gives leeway as far as his powers are concerned. I'm still not quite sure what she meant, but to be fair to her, perhaps she was simply arguing that the President can decide how much Executive power to delegate to the VP, in a sort of roundabout way?
This isn't really my area of expertise, so any help on the particulars is appreciated.
ADDED: Biden may have made a gaffe on the Constitution, but according to Michael Totten, it wasn't his only one. Looking back, I noticed that something was off with his Lebanon analysis as well, and reading the full quote, I stand amazed that he said what he said. That was a major gaffe, for a professed foreign policy expert. (HT: Instapundit)
Something else that Biden
Something else that Biden got wrong in that exchange was the theory that Dick Cheney invented this idea that the veep is part of the legislative branch. As I noted here, it wasn't Cheney - or even David Adddington - who first mentioned the idea, it was framer Oliver Ellsworth, writing in the Connecticut Courant, in December 1787.
To be fair to Biden, he may have got the wrong name, but he was only off by about two hundred or so years on the timeframe, so it's not really a mistake per se, but that's a very subtle distinction. (I'm spoofing, albeit not well, NPR's execrable debate coverage this morning.)
"When someone says their heart needs lifting, don't ask how come, ask how high."
On the actual question - I
On the actual question - I think that what Palin was getting at was that she thinks that her role as President of the Senate gives her a bit of power to knock heads together to get things done, in addition to a merely persuasive role. I'm not sure how satisfying that point really is, because as Biden accurately noted, the veep's power in the Senate is purely to break votes in the event of a tie. That makes the veep potentially quite powerful in circumstances that are unlikely to occur during Palin's term. (Biden might also have pointed out that Palin appeared to overestimate how much involvement she would have with the Senate; her remarks seemed (to me) to envision her being involved as a matter of course, but no Vice President has routinely presided over the Senate in half a century. (According to the Senate historian, because I know you're wondering, the last was Alben Barkley.)
Cheney's "I'm legislative" gambit was rejected recently by the federal district court in the District of Columbia court, IIRC, and I seem to remember thinking the opinion was pretty good, but I only skimmed it. It's not something that's so utterly ridiculous that it can be dismissed at the stroke of a pen, although I think that the utility of the distinction for Cheney's purposes - even if it held up - would likely be quite minor. For example, the claim that his records were exempt from the Presidential Records Act's retention requirements because he's in the legislative branch would seem to fail for the purposes of all non-legislative material even if you accept his theory.
"When someone says their heart needs lifting, don't ask how come, ask how high."
Yeah I agree with that.
I agree with that. I think Biden would've been on safe ground if he'd just stuck to Palin's argument about the Vice President involving herself in the day-to-day of the Senate. Ifill I think brought up Cheney, and I think it unintentionally allowed Biden to get tied up and flub the line.
"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."
John 16:33
Not quite, Simon...
The Veep's constitutional power in the Senate definitely extends significantly beyond voting in the case of a tie, because of the power inherent in any parliamentary body of the presiding officer.
Senator procedure is so arcane, it might not matter much given 200 years of legislative inertia of largely ignoring the V-P's procedural role, but presiding officer rule on all sorts of motions, whether they're appropriate procedurally or not, whether there's a quorum, all sorts of stuff. If a V-P chose to attend the Senate proceedings regularly, he could at least make life very difficult for anybody who didn't want to go along with him... keeping the vote open until he has the tally he wants, forcing votes to overrule the presiding officer on motions to amend, etc.
Good point - now I come to
Good point - now I come to think of it, that was the setup for the nuclear option, wasn't it. They were going to bring a motion that filibustering nominations was unconstitutional and have Cheney swoop in to rule on it.
I haven't had a chance to go
I haven't had a chance to go back to the transcript, but thought I caught Biden contradicting himself on this point about the VP role in the Senate. Didn't he respond to the earlier question about his conversations with Obama on what his intended role was by saying that Obama wanted him to be his legislative point man to work with Congress? Then here he described a very limited Constitutional power for the VP to participate only in tiebreaking role. Did I misunderstand his first response, or am I right to think that you can't square those two answers?
still shocked
I'm still shocked by the giant gap between my impression and what so many other folks are saying. Early on, I thought Palin was wretched. I've seldom been less impressed. She got better later on, but not enough better to overcome my intial impression of someone who doesn't belong in major league politics.
__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
That's kind of why I've
That's kind of why I've stopped writing about how I thought people did this season. The pundits have been wrong about almost everything throughout the entire election season this year, from Iowa on in, and just as their radar seems out, think mine is too. I thought McCain's convention speech was awful, just mind-numbingly horrible, but it was very well-received in all but the most trenchantly pro-Obama quarters. I thought Palin did just fine last night; Dan Balz seems to agree, and NPR obviously thought it was effective given their efforts to mitigate its effect with some extraordinarily slanted coverage this morning. I wouldn't go so far as to agree that "she killed," but she did fine.
"When someone says their heart needs lifting, don't ask how come, ask how high."
huh
Hmm. And I thought McCain's speech was really good. It had me leaning his way until Palin's performance. Go figure.__________
I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel. -Horace Walpole
Veep question
Its funny that no one has questioned the question. When I heard Gwen Ifill ask the question my first thought was "Uh ohh, there's no way Palin will get this." I believe I was correct because her answer, to me, suggested she was unaware of the Cheney-records fight. This really seemed like a Washington-insider question with the added spice of the "Cheney" factor. If constitutional scholars argue over the question and the American electorate is clueless on the issue then I assume the only thing we'll hear in the question is "Do you agree with Dick Cheney?"
Chris
I suspect that might have been the intent of the question, Chris
It's possible that the whole point of the question was to try and ask whether Palin agreed with Cheney, and might count as a gotcha, although Palin might have come out of the question looking better than Biden did, considering his gaffe.
Not that Palin's cryptic answer on the expanding powers of the Veep didn't trouble me just as much.
"In the world you will find tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."
John 16:33